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 Post subject: Re: Where’s Hagun?!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:24 pm 
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Posts: 556
mello wrote:
Dodi wrote:
mello wrote:

Hmm....

Actually, I've done quite a bit of math, and while you can't make a reasonable 6-hit build with Nana, you don't need to because in high haste scenarios, that 30 delay difference makes your 7 hits just an extra 1.5 or so second difference to 1000TP and while you WS that much less, you're also getting an extra hit's worth of damage in. Not to mention you can run lower accuracy to intentionally Zanshin(meritted) more often which could makes up for that difference in time it takes to 1000 rather than how many hits it takes to 1000.

Right now I land at 1006tp, 7-hit with only brutal, hachi feet on WS and 4/5 Store TP. Leaves a lot of room to maximize DMG on TP and WS. Whereas I need quite a bit of STP to 6-hit on a 450delay GK. Unless my math is wrong.

I'm sure I could make a better build once I get more than literally 0 sky/sea/toau gear, but that's just my experience with SAM on Nasomi.

http://prntscr.com/n9rtfl (Sorry it's not clear or labeled, it's just me throwing numbers down for calculations.


[a] Can you link me that calculator for fiddling purposes?
[b] Do you think it's optimal to WS in all stp gear as opposed to STR gear? I prefer to just wear the stp hands in tp phase and be done with it. (With stp hands, Brutal and Rajas I have a true 6 hit- the only piece of gear I give up is tp hands.)


I have a ton of other stuff on that spreadsheet but i can copy/paste to a new spreadsheet and share, sure.

Probly with stp hands is you lose dusk hands, which is huge. The build on the right is a true 6 hit meaning WS+5 hits. It counts all the additional TP from WS gear. I have Shinimusha because myochin haidade’s 4 STP doesnt work apparently, so I’d need Enkidu and a +1 on any Hachi. And this would give you plenty of Str and WS accuracy for WS dmg and minimize and sacrifice in TPing. Again it’s just going with my options. I don’t even have a rajas ring yet, nor a good 450 delay GK to compare/contrast.

I’ll send you some stufff on discord tomorrow


First caveat- I didn’t play SAM past subjob on retail. My references here were in-era BG wiki threads about SAM and other resources like that. I know FFXI calculator has a hit build calculator as well but I got most of my info from BG wiki.

When using a 450 delay GK (Shinsoku, Onimaru, Hagun) a 75 SAM needs +46 stp to get to a 6 hit build. 25 from job traits, 10 from merits leaves 11 from gear. People who aren’t idiots realize that they full time rajas and brutal so really you only need to make up 5 stp. Easiest way to do this is either hachi hands or feet. I choose to use the hands because I’d rather give up 2 haste than 3 haste (I don’t have +1 hands). Ideally I’d give up no haste, but everything I read from the in-era SAM guides suggested hachi hands and you’re there. The tp gain is such that you don’t need any extra at all in WS set and has the advantage of not fucking your hit build if you miss Y/G/K. My WS set is literally ignoring stp and jamming every last STR or attack that I can get.

What you are suggesting from your calculations is to try to get as much as possible in the WS set. It’s the first time I’ve ever seen it suggested and I’m not sure I agree with that approach as compared to what I’ve read. For one it completely falls apart if you miss the WS. You no longer have a 6 hit from melee swings. Granted that shouldn’t happen often, but when I play SAM I’m literally WS’ing every few seconds so it adds up.

This argument is the same I would use to rebut your suggestion that a 7 hit is only 1.5 seconds slower than a 6 hit to 1000 tp. That’s not the best way to compare the numbers. The best way would be % faster or slower because that absolute (and theoretical) number lacks context. If it takes 1.5 seconds longer but I get 1k to in six seconds on my 6 hit then it takes Nana 25% longer. (Using round numbers for ease of calculation). When you say 25% longer it has a different ring to it than 1.5 seconds.

To be honest I don’t feel comfortable making any grand pronouncements without actual testing, which I haven’t had the time nor the desire to undertake. The spreadsheets have always been a nice tool for theorycrafting but the proof always come with the data. And my references from BG wiki have no context for Nana as an option because it didn’t really exist as an option (I’m glad Nas is removing it because it’s fake).

The bottom line here is that my comments on GK options have basis in fact but also some subjectivity as well. Someone who has actually parsed with Nana vs a 450 could sway me with data. Until then, I’m sticking with my Onimaru :)

P.S. I’d still love to take a look at your spreadsheet and compare it to the FFXI calc at some point. I’m just so jammed with endgame events at the moment that I can’t bring myself to use my playtime ws’ing huge wasps outside of Port Bastok :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Where’s Hagun?!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:30 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:09 am
Posts: 333
Dodi wrote:
mello wrote:
Dodi wrote:

[a] Can you link me that calculator for fiddling purposes?
[b] Do you think it's optimal to WS in all stp gear as opposed to STR gear? I prefer to just wear the stp hands in tp phase and be done with it. (With stp hands, Brutal and Rajas I have a true 6 hit- the only piece of gear I give up is tp hands.)


I have a ton of other stuff on that spreadsheet but i can copy/paste to a new spreadsheet and share, sure.

Probly with stp hands is you lose dusk hands, which is huge. The build on the right is a true 6 hit meaning WS+5 hits. It counts all the additional TP from WS gear. I have Shinimusha because myochin haidade’s 4 STP doesnt work apparently, so I’d need Enkidu and a +1 on any Hachi. And this would give you plenty of Str and WS accuracy for WS dmg and minimize and sacrifice in TPing. Again it’s just going with my options. I don’t even have a rajas ring yet, nor a good 450 delay GK to compare/contrast.

I’ll send you some stufff on discord tomorrow


First caveat- I didn’t play SAM past subjob on retail. My references here were in-era BG wiki threads about SAM and other resources like that. I know FFXI calculator has a hit build calculator as well but I got most of my info from BG wiki.

When using a 450 delay GK (Shinsoku, Onimaru, Hagun) a 75 SAM needs +46 stp to get to a 6 hit build. 25 from job traits, 10 from merits leaves 11 from gear. People who aren’t idiots realize that they full time rajas and brutal so really you only need to make up 5 stp. Easiest way to do this is either hachi hands or feet. I choose to use the hands because I’d rather give up 2 haste than 3 haste (I don’t have +1 hands). Ideally I’d give up no haste, but everything I read from the in-era SAM guides suggested hachi hands and you’re there. The tp gain is such that you don’t need any extra at all in WS set and has the advantage of not fucking your hit build if you miss Y/G/K. My WS set is literally ignoring stp and jamming every last STR or attack that I can get.

What you are suggesting from your calculations is to try to get as much as possible in the WS set. It’s the first time I’ve ever seen it suggested and I’m not sure I agree with that approach as compared to what I’ve read. For one it completely falls apart if you miss the WS. You no longer have a 6 hit from melee swings. Granted that shouldn’t happen often, but when I play SAM I’m literally WS’ing every few seconds so it adds up.

This argument is the same I would use to rebut your suggestion that a 7 hit is only 1.5 seconds slower than a 6 hit to 1000 tp. That’s not the best way to compare the numbers. The best way would be % faster or slower because that absolute (and theoretical) number lacks context. If it takes 1.5 seconds longer but I get 1k to in six seconds on my 6 hit then it takes Nana 25% longer. (Using round numbers for ease of calculation). When you say 25% longer it has a different ring to it than 1.5 seconds.

To be honest I don’t feel comfortable making any grand pronouncements without actual testing, which I haven’t had the time nor the desire to undertake. The spreadsheets have always been a nice tool for theorycrafting but the proof always come with the data. And my references from BG wiki have no context for Nana as an option because it didn’t really exist as an option (I’m glad Nas is removing it because it’s fake).

The bottom line here is that my comments on GK options have basis in fact but also some subjectivity as well. Someone who has actually parsed with Nana vs a 450 could sway me with data. Until then, I’m sticking with my Onimaru :)

P.S. I’d still love to take a look at your spreadsheet and compare it to the FFXI calc at some point. I’m just so jammed with endgame events at the moment that I can’t bring myself to use my playtime ws’ing huge wasps outside of Port Bastok :lol: :lol:


I'd have to plug in the numbers again. but that 1.5 sec I believe is 11.5 instead of 13 seconds. I can go over it again tonight when I get home.

Sent over the spreadsheet. As you mentioned, for 450delay specifically, it really depends on if you want that haste? or do you want to swap out something that give stp on your WS. stp gear for WS is generally pretty good since Hachiman also gives STR and WS accuracy, you don't really need attack for YGK, STR and Acc is more important. So the comparison here becomes:
What are you swapping out in your WS set, compared to what you're swapping out in your TP set. It mostly comes down to losing some Attk on your WS set, to gain more haste on your TP set. A worthwhile trade imo, especially in high-haste situations, and with attk not mattering much on YGK.

Examples of swaps (450 delay or Amano only)
Body: Hachiman domaru vs Hauby
Hands: Hachiman Kote vs Anky/Pallas
Legs: Shinimusha Haidate vs Royal Knight's vs Enkidu vs Myochin Haidate +1
Feet: Hachiman feet vs ???

_________________
In-game name: Mello


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 Post subject: Re: Where’s Hagun?!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:13 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:10 pm
Posts: 556
mello wrote:
Dodi wrote:
mello wrote:

I have a ton of other stuff on that spreadsheet but i can copy/paste to a new spreadsheet and share, sure.

Probly with stp hands is you lose dusk hands, which is huge. The build on the right is a true 6 hit meaning WS+5 hits. It counts all the additional TP from WS gear. I have Shinimusha because myochin haidade’s 4 STP doesnt work apparently, so I’d need Enkidu and a +1 on any Hachi. And this would give you plenty of Str and WS accuracy for WS dmg and minimize and sacrifice in TPing. Again it’s just going with my options. I don’t even have a rajas ring yet, nor a good 450 delay GK to compare/contrast.

I’ll send you some stufff on discord tomorrow


First caveat- I didn’t play SAM past subjob on retail. My references here were in-era BG wiki threads about SAM and other resources like that. I know FFXI calculator has a hit build calculator as well but I got most of my info from BG wiki.

When using a 450 delay GK (Shinsoku, Onimaru, Hagun) a 75 SAM needs +46 stp to get to a 6 hit build. 25 from job traits, 10 from merits leaves 11 from gear. People who aren’t idiots realize that they full time rajas and brutal so really you only need to make up 5 stp. Easiest way to do this is either hachi hands or feet. I choose to use the hands because I’d rather give up 2 haste than 3 haste (I don’t have +1 hands). Ideally I’d give up no haste, but everything I read from the in-era SAM guides suggested hachi hands and you’re there. The tp gain is such that you don’t need any extra at all in WS set and has the advantage of not fucking your hit build if you miss Y/G/K. My WS set is literally ignoring stp and jamming every last STR or attack that I can get.

What you are suggesting from your calculations is to try to get as much as possible in the WS set. It’s the first time I’ve ever seen it suggested and I’m not sure I agree with that approach as compared to what I’ve read. For one it completely falls apart if you miss the WS. You no longer have a 6 hit from melee swings. Granted that shouldn’t happen often, but when I play SAM I’m literally WS’ing every few seconds so it adds up.

This argument is the same I would use to rebut your suggestion that a 7 hit is only 1.5 seconds slower than a 6 hit to 1000 tp. That’s not the best way to compare the numbers. The best way would be % faster or slower because that absolute (and theoretical) number lacks context. If it takes 1.5 seconds longer but I get 1k to in six seconds on my 6 hit then it takes Nana 25% longer. (Using round numbers for ease of calculation). When you say 25% longer it has a different ring to it than 1.5 seconds.

To be honest I don’t feel comfortable making any grand pronouncements without actual testing, which I haven’t had the time nor the desire to undertake. The spreadsheets have always been a nice tool for theorycrafting but the proof always come with the data. And my references from BG wiki have no context for Nana as an option because it didn’t really exist as an option (I’m glad Nas is removing it because it’s fake).

The bottom line here is that my comments on GK options have basis in fact but also some subjectivity as well. Someone who has actually parsed with Nana vs a 450 could sway me with data. Until then, I’m sticking with my Onimaru :)

P.S. I’d still love to take a look at your spreadsheet and compare it to the FFXI calc at some point. I’m just so jammed with endgame events at the moment that I can’t bring myself to use my playtime ws’ing huge wasps outside of Port Bastok :lol: :lol:


I'd have to plug in the numbers again. but that 1.5 sec I believe is 11.5 instead of 13 seconds. I can go over it again tonight when I get home.

Sent over the spreadsheet. As you mentioned, for 450delay specifically, it really depends on if you want that haste? or do you want to swap out something that give stp on your WS. stp gear for WS is generally pretty good since Hachiman also gives STR and WS accuracy, you don't really need attack for YGK, STR and Acc is more important. So the comparison here becomes:
What are you swapping out in your WS set, compared to what you're swapping out in your TP set. It mostly comes down to losing some Attk on your WS set, to gain more haste on your TP set. A worthwhile trade imo, especially in high-haste situations, and with attk not mattering much on YGK.

Examples of swaps (450 delay or Amano only)
Body: Hachiman domaru vs Hauby
Hands: Hachiman Kote vs Anky/Pallas
Legs: Shinimusha Haidate vs Royal Knight's vs Enkidu vs Myochin Haidate +1
Feet: Hachiman feet vs ???


I've never really considered acc to be that important for YGK because I have sea gorgets and some acc that creeps into ws set naturally. *Supposedly* YGK have an inherent accuracy boost that allows you to relax your ws accuracy and compared to TP accuracy but I don't know how to quantify that- only that it was something I read repeatedly in the in-era forum posts. The issue with the gear swaps you suggest isn't attack, it's STR. You give away a ton of the bread and butter of what makes YGK do damage in the first place. They are 75% STR mods.

Hachi Domaru doesn't seem like a bad trade but I currently use Osode because it's more STR. I also noticed you just sold yours when I looked up the price lol. Going from Alky's to Kote is a pretty large dropoff IMO. Losing 7 STR and the Kote latent isn't active for WS. I use Shura Legs for WS which is much better than anything you listed except Enkidus. I would use Enkidus if I needed the STP, but Shura have more STR and also have acc. For feet, I guess it's close as well- I wear Rutter Sabs that have more STR and also some attack. Your set gives away a ton of damage on the WS to make a 6 hit with 2 more haste, and if you miss your WS you are a 7 melee hit build. Even with capped acc this happens 1 out of every 20 WS, which doesn't take long for a SAM. Unsure of what the correct answer is tbh, just throwing the other side out there.


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 Post subject: Re: Where’s Hagun?!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:54 pm 
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Posts: 556
I just realized this whole thread that I was saying Dusk hands are 2 haste when they are actually 3 haste- not worth the edit- I will accept my derp-heckling.


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 Post subject: Re: Where’s Hagun?!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:42 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:09 am
Posts: 333
Dodi wrote:
I just realized this whole thread that I was saying Dusk hands are 2 haste when they are actually 3 haste- not worth the edit- I will accept my derp-heckling.


I sold my Hachiman Domaru to buy Hauby because I don't have the resources for both. I'd definitely make some gear changes if I could, but I'm limited by my patience to farm/camp with the limited playing time I have. And with the beautiful Utah spring coming up here soon, FFXI is gonna have a hard time competing with IRL for leisure time haha

If STP requirements are met, I agree with K.Osode for sure, but that's not in my realm of possibility

_________________
In-game name: Mello


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 Post subject: Re: Where’s Hagun?!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:57 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:10 pm
Posts: 556
mello wrote:
Dodi wrote:
I just realized this whole thread that I was saying Dusk hands are 2 haste when they are actually 3 haste- not worth the edit- I will accept my derp-heckling.


I sold my Hachiman Domaru to buy Hauby because I don't have the resources for both. I'd definitely make some gear changes if I could, but I'm limited by my patience to farm/camp with the limited playing time I have. And with the beautiful Utah spring coming up here soon, FFXI is gonna have a hard time competing with IRL for leisure time haha

If STP requirements are met, I agree with K.Osode for sure, but that's not in my realm of possibility


I totally understand the resource argument. I am stubbornly holding off on Alky's because I don't want my liquid gil total to go that low. I wish I had snagged a pair when they were 1.1 instead of 1.6 atm. You also have to realize that a chunk of the gear I have is cheap or free due to being in my EGLS.

Can you get there w/o the hand swap? That's the one that seems most egregious but I imagine the build depends on that +8 stp.


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 Post subject: Re: Where’s Hagun?!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:00 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:09 am
Posts: 333
Dodi wrote:
mello wrote:
Dodi wrote:
I just realized this whole thread that I was saying Dusk hands are 2 haste when they are actually 3 haste- not worth the edit- I will accept my derp-heckling.


I sold my Hachiman Domaru to buy Hauby because I don't have the resources for both. I'd definitely make some gear changes if I could, but I'm limited by my patience to farm/camp with the limited playing time I have. And with the beautiful Utah spring coming up here soon, FFXI is gonna have a hard time competing with IRL for leisure time haha

If STP requirements are met, I agree with K.Osode for sure, but that's not in my realm of possibility


I totally understand the resource argument. I am stubbornly holding off on Alky's because I don't want my liquid gil total to go that low. I wish I had snagged a pair when they were 1.1 instead of 1.6 atm. You also have to realize that a chunk of the gear I have is cheap or free due to being in my EGLS.

Can you get there w/o the hand swap? That's the one that seems most egregious but I imagine the build depends on that +8 stp.


you tell me. i sent you my build chart to play around and see how you can hit 1000TP ^_^

_________________
In-game name: Mello


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 Post subject: Re: Where’s Hagun?!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:58 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:48 am
Posts: 10
Dodi wrote:
mello wrote:
Dodi wrote:
I just realized this whole thread that I was saying Dusk hands are 2 haste when they are actually 3 haste- not worth the edit- I will accept my derp-heckling.


I sold my Hachiman Domaru to buy Hauby because I don't have the resources for both. I'd definitely make some gear changes if I could, but I'm limited by my patience to farm/camp with the limited playing time I have. And with the beautiful Utah spring coming up here soon, FFXI is gonna have a hard time competing with IRL for leisure time haha

If STP requirements are met, I agree with K.Osode for sure, but that's not in my realm of possibility


I totally understand the resource argument. I am stubbornly holding off on Alky's because I don't want my liquid gil total to go that low. I wish I had snagged a pair when they were 1.1 instead of 1.6 atm. You also have to realize that a chunk of the gear I have is cheap or free due to being in my EGLS.

Can you get there w/o the hand swap? That's the one that seems most egregious but I imagine the build depends on that +8 stp.


I’ve heard rumors that ATTK is more beneficial for W.S. than STR on Nasomi. No proof to back that up, just something I heard and am experimenting with.


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 Post subject: Re: Where’s Hagun?!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:54 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:09 am
Posts: 333
Ghoulbath wrote:
Dodi wrote:
mello wrote:

I sold my Hachiman Domaru to buy Hauby because I don't have the resources for both. I'd definitely make some gear changes if I could, but I'm limited by my patience to farm/camp with the limited playing time I have. And with the beautiful Utah spring coming up here soon, FFXI is gonna have a hard time competing with IRL for leisure time haha

If STP requirements are met, I agree with K.Osode for sure, but that's not in my realm of possibility


I totally understand the resource argument. I am stubbornly holding off on Alky's because I don't want my liquid gil total to go that low. I wish I had snagged a pair when they were 1.1 instead of 1.6 atm. You also have to realize that a chunk of the gear I have is cheap or free due to being in my EGLS.

Can you get there w/o the hand swap? That's the one that seems most egregious but I imagine the build depends on that +8 stp.


I’ve heard rumors that ATTK is more beneficial for W.S. than STR on Nasomi. No proof to back that up, just something I heard and am experimenting with.


STR "primary" is better for 1-2 hit WS, such as Samurai WS
Attack "primary" is better for multi-hit WS such as Raging Rush, Rampage, Penta-thrust, Asuran Fist, Vorpal.

I say primary because both attack and modifiers are important, just a matter of which you want to focus on more while trying to not sacrifice the other too much for overall the most damage possible in that equipset.

That may be why you're hearing that. However, Yuki, Gekko, and Kasha also have innate have attack modifiers as well, which makes attack less important as it becomes more a matter of increasing your damage cap (STR) than increasing your average damage (attack) withing you minimum-maximum damage range.

_________________
In-game name: Mello


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 Post subject: Re: Where’s Hagun?!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:59 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:10 pm
Posts: 556
mello wrote:
Ghoulbath wrote:
Dodi wrote:

I totally understand the resource argument. I am stubbornly holding off on Alky's because I don't want my liquid gil total to go that low. I wish I had snagged a pair when they were 1.1 instead of 1.6 atm. You also have to realize that a chunk of the gear I have is cheap or free due to being in my EGLS.

Can you get there w/o the hand swap? That's the one that seems most egregious but I imagine the build depends on that +8 stp.


I’ve heard rumors that ATTK is more beneficial for W.S. than STR on Nasomi. No proof to back that up, just something I heard and am experimenting with.


STR "primary" is better for 1-2 hit WS, such as Samurai WS
Attack "primary" is better for multi-hit WS such as Raging Rush, Rampage, Penta-thrust, Asuran Fist, Vorpal.

I say primary because both attack and modifiers are important, just a matter of which you want to focus on more while trying to not sacrifice the other too much for overall the most damage possible in that equipset.

That may be why you're hearing that. However, Yuki, Gekko, and Kasha also have innate have attack modifiers as well, which makes attack less important as it becomes more a matter of increasing your damage cap (STR) than increasing your average damage (attack) withing you minimum-maximum damage range.


Exactly. My SAM penta ws set is focused on maximizing acc and attack wherever possible, but my YGK sets are jamming STR wherever possible.

I have heard the same statements Ghoulbath has about the potency of attack on Nasomi, but it doesn’t really change the nature of gearing for one-hit ws vs multihit.


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