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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:09 pm 
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I get it - Just imagining how mechanics would work of what you describe, technically if I start casting Quake on a mob.. everyone around me isn't supposed to wait for me to finish and claim the mob.

Some things are instant, and have various ranges, for balance reasons. Having an ability that can take claim from someone else is game-breaking.

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Kazen wrote:
...TopShelf told Nas to roll back all your ZNM gear, do the gilpocalypse and nerf Fishing/RNG into the ground.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:30 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:55 pm
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Wolffhardt wrote:
I get it - Just imagining how mechanics would work of what you describe, technically if I start casting Quake on a mob.. everyone around me isn't supposed to wait for me to finish and claim the mob.

Some things are instant, and have various ranges, for balance reasons. Having an ability that can take claim from someone else is game-breaking.



Agree


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:32 pm 
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Ben wrote:
Wolffhardt wrote:
I get it - Just imagining how mechanics would work of what you describe, technically if I start casting Quake on a mob.. everyone around me isn't supposed to wait for me to finish and claim the mob.

Some things are instant, and have various ranges, for balance reasons. Having an ability that can take claim from someone else is game-breaking.


If it actually steals yes. If it just claims instantly like many other jobs, not at all. Should it be fixed? Absolutely. Is it gamebreaking? No. Adding another job to the list of fast claimers is not a big deal. If there is something else going on I trust Nasomi is doing the right thing to prevent exploiting. Don't actually trust him to fix it however which is sad for PUP considering the state it was already in. Any other job would have had something this big be a priority I feel, but with PUP I wouldn't be surprised if Nas just leaves it for when he feels like dealing with it, which for all I know and from what I've seen in my admittedly limited time here might mean in many months. If that.



The main thing is: deploy is fundamentally broken. Let's call it "Backloaded". It puts you one notch higher in the hierarchy than EVERY other PC. The utility the Automaton offered greatly overshadowed any other subjob choices no matter what class I mained. If I use deploy, and my automaton is across the map all it has to do is come in and last hit "your" mob. This gives me a huge advantage where I can send my puppet out after a MOB, and run immediately to the next mob I'm hunting. I play on a Chromebook and generally get less than 20FPS. Even with that handicap, I was able to bully anyone out of any area I camped. With NO exceptions. Friends would send me /tells asking for me to strong-arm people out of areas they were trying to farm in. The automaton's health bar will "depop" at a certain range. When the health bar becomes visible again I know that my target is dead and my automaton has warped back to me -- and I send it then, immediately, to the next MOB.

If I see you going for a mob I want, but my Puppet is fighting another MOB -- Guess what -- I'm going to deploy it on the MOB you want, and as the automaton is running to steal the last few hits on your mob I will clean up the remaining HP on the previous mob, which was trained to me by my automaton. If people gave me attitude or had toxic correspondence with me, which happens a lot when you're fighting over MOBs, I would punish them heavily for it. --And THAT is where the problem is. No job is supposed to have the raw control to preemptively DOTA-style deny someone from the MOBs they are hunting.

This may even just be the surface of how exploitable the job was, like I mentioned before, I wasn't outwardly looking for exploits. I just learned the idiosyncrasies of the job.

It reminds me of stacking "backloaded" animations to do burst damage in other MMOs, but to the extreme, because this isn't a game where you need 30+ bindings. This isn't something like cancelling an animation in a fighting game, which might be considered "meta", because the skill ceiling in this game is incredibly low (unless you count raw knowledge as skill, which it's not), so things like this are "gamebreaking". Just like toggling auto attack on 2H classes was gamebreaking.

I personally saw a big spike in PUP population, directly related to players who witnessed me either farming Air Elementals and/or Poison Leeches.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:17 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:07 am
Posts: 2
Is this job even playable in its current state?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:50 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:35 pm
Posts: 2629
Ben wrote:
whorcraft wrote:
Ben wrote:

If it actually steals yes. If it just claims instantly like many other jobs, not at all. Should it be fixed? Absolutely. Is it gamebreaking? No. Adding another job to the list of fast claimers is not a big deal. If there is something else going on I trust Nasomi is doing the right thing to prevent exploiting. Don't actually trust him to fix it however which is sad for PUP considering the state it was already in. Any other job would have had something this big be a priority I feel, but with PUP I wouldn't be surprised if Nas just leaves it for when he feels like dealing with it, which for all I know and from what I've seen in my admittedly limited time here might mean in many months. If that.



The main thing is: deploy is fundamentally broken. Let's call it "Backloaded". It puts you one notch higher in the hierarchy than EVERY other PC. The utility the Automaton offered greatly overshadowed any other subjob choices no matter what class I mained. If I use deploy, and my automaton is across the map all it has to do is come in and last hit "your" mob. This gives me a huge advantage where I can send my puppet out after a MOB, and run immediately to the next mob I'm hunting. I play on a Chromebook and generally get less than 20FPS. Even with that handicap, I was able to bully anyone out of any area I camped. With NO exceptions. Friends would send me /tells asking for me to strong-arm people out of areas they were trying to farm in. The automaton's health bar will "depop" at a certain range. When the health bar becomes visible again I know that my target is dead and my automaton has warped back to me -- and I send it then, immediately, to the next MOB.

If I see you going for a mob I want, but my Puppet is fighting another MOB -- Guess what -- I'm going to deploy it on the MOB you want, and as the automaton is running to steal the last few hits on your mob I will clean up the remaining HP on the previous mob, which was trained to me by my automaton. If people gave me attitude or had toxic correspondence with me, which happens a lot when you're fighting over MOBs, I would punish them heavily for it. --And THAT is where the problem is. No job is supposed to have the raw control to preemptively DOTA-style deny someone from the MOBs they are hunting.

This may even just be the surface of how exploitable the job was, like I mentioned before, I wasn't outwardly looking for exploits. I just learned the idiosyncrasies of the job.

It reminds me of stacking "backloaded" animations to do burst damage in other MMOs, but to the extreme, because this isn't a game where you need 30+ bindings. This isn't something like cancelling an animation in a fighting game, which might be considered "meta", because the skill ceiling in this game is incredibly low (unless you count raw knowledge as skill, which it's not), so things like this are "gamebreaking". Just like toggling auto attack on 2H classes was gamebreaking.

I personally saw a big spike in PUP population, directly related to players who witnessed me either farming Air Elementals and/or Poison Leeches.


Personally I think it should be fixed asap, but it isn't a big enough issue that deploy should be disabled. If it is considered so bad that deploy has to be disabled, well then those who have been exploiting it should get banned for it.



We're all speculating because Nas isn't going to explain the exploit, but if the issue is what I guessed it was and the only way to have fixed it would have been to delete PUP entirely... That still would have been justified.

That doesn't mean there were people exploiting it to be banned, though again.. if it was what I said, I believe he'd have banned anyone doing it. He may have just been stopping it before someone had the opportunity to exploit it.

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Kazen wrote:
...TopShelf told Nas to roll back all your ZNM gear, do the gilpocalypse and nerf Fishing/RNG into the ground.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:39 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 26, 2018 5:33 am
Posts: 2
Does the current version of pup have Deus Ex Automata? I think it may be out of era, but not sure.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:57 am 
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Joined: Sat May 07, 2016 7:48 pm
Posts: 14
kwame wrote:
Does the current version of pup have Deus Ex Automata? I think it may be out of era, but not sure.


The current version of PUP doesn't have anything, including Deploy.

And Deus Ex Automata was added around 2010 - so yes, it is out of era and unlikely to be included if/when PUP is eventually fixed.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:59 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 10:10 am
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Location: California
kwame wrote:
Does the current version of pup have Deus Ex Automata? I think it may be out of era, but not sure.


I updated the OP to reflect everything that is currently known about pup, it's currently essentially nonfunctional altogether.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:43 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:08 pm
Posts: 17
Please fix PUP
or at least some parts
:(


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:54 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 10, 2017 8:26 pm
Posts: 3780
sinjii wrote:
Please fix PUP
or at least some parts
:(

PUP is in the works for next maint already

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