Nasomi Community FFXI Server
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Game Balance
https://na.nasomi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5128		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  inaringo [ Tue May 22, 2018 8:00 am ]
Post subject:  Game Balance
Aht Urgan thread brought up current issues with game balance, so I'd like to discuss. Currently there are two metas: one for exp and another for end game. The exp meta is melee heavy, with the ideal party being COR, BRD, RDM, and three melee dps. Magic dps is considered inefficient, and tanks are often unnecessary. The end game meta, on the other hand, relies on magic damage with tanks being absolutely necessary. Thus the only jobs that fit well into both metas are support jobs: RDM, BRD, and COR. Not only are many jobs split between these two extremes, some have trouble fitting into either, such as BLU.

Some might object that making balance changes goes against the philosophy of an era server. It is certainly the case that people play nasomi to avoid the changes that made retail into what it is today, including aggressive balancing that resulted in power creep and content being rendered obsolete. However, I believe that small changes can be made that preserve the old spirit of challenging gameplay and balance between early, mid, and end game with minimal interference in game mechanics.

I propose:

-Make Juices Stackable. It is clear RDM dominates the exp meta. Having RDM heal minimizes downtown through superb MP management with Refresh and Convert. Having other mages in the party makes RDM all the more necessary, as they too require refresh. Thus trying to replace RDM in exp parties inevitably leads to disappointment. Stackable juices would reduce dependence on RDMs with an appropriate trade-off of more gil spent and inventory space taken up.

-Reduce the timer of Chain Affinity from 2 minutes to 1 minute. Chain Affinity is not only a very powerful ability, it encourages skill chains that are the basis of synergy between melee and mages. This would provide a much needed buff to BLU while pushing all all other jobs towards a more balanced meta.

-Add certain spells from current retail. RDM's Inundation powers up skillchain damage based on number of weapon types used, encouraging multi-step skillchains. PLD's Reprisal provides an extra source of damage, justifying its used compared to another melee dps. WHM's Repose provides sorely needed utility to a job that's often passed up for RDM.

-Open up the pudding camps. BLM's solution to their exclusion from the exp meta has been to go solo or level with each other. Help them do that more.

-Add a bonus to multi-step skillchains. Anything that encourages skillchains is good for game balance, and this is a way that encourages extra effort and party diversity.

These are just a few ideas, and I'm sure everyone has interesting opinions on the subject of game balance, so please discuss below.
Author:  Kazen [ Tue May 22, 2018 8:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Game Balance
META: Most Efficient Tactic Available

Just because something is "the meta" doesn't mean you have to follow it. Find your own playstyle and enjoy the game your way. That's what is great about FFXI(MMOs in general), we can all do the same thing in many different ways.

The meta for both exp PTs and endgame has been set for a long time(way before Nasomi), yes there are adjustments made when things are nerfed/buffed but you will always see the same meta at HNMs(TP moves can wipe an alliance, why give unnecessary TP?) and in EXP PTs.

Out of era spells are not a change I want to see added unless they all are. Why is it fair for WHMs to get Repose and PLDs Reprisal, but RDMs don't get access to Composure/Distract/Flurry? Only because RDM is more "desirable"?

There is a bonus to multi-step skillchains already in the game, you get a damage bonus on each skillchain you do after the first one.

The "issue" you see is something that has been part of this game for nearly as long as I've been playing it(15+ years).

Edit: Also people keep saying "add in the pudding camp so BLMs can exp". You realize that was primarily a meripo camp in ToAU and not for leveling? Sure you can get merits there as BLM but you can do that while making money in sky farming pop sets.

I am fully on board with the opening of all of ToAU but I'd rather wait until most if not all of it is working before seeing it implemented
Author:  inaringo [ Tue May 22, 2018 9:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Game Balance
I'd say most of these issues have actually been solved in current retail, mostly by powering up skillchains and magic burst. The multi-step skillchain bonus was something I thought was added later, but in any case it's much more noticeable in retail. Giving RDM extra debuffs was a measure to keep it relevant when Refresh became less necessary (definitely not the case here) and they would make fights significantly easier, which isn't the point.
Author:  Kazen [ Tue May 22, 2018 9:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Game Balance
inaringo wrote:
I'd say most of these issues have actually been solved in current retail


That is where I think you are misunderstanding the point of this server. It's to be as close as it can to 2005/6 retail, not current. Adding out of era stuff for specific jobs because they aren't prioritized is a very slippery slope. One I hope this server never starts to go down.
Author:  Wolffhardt [ Tue May 22, 2018 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Game Balance
inaringo wrote:
I'd say most of these issues have actually been solved in current retail, mostly by powering up skillchains and magic burst. The multi-step skillchain bonus was something I thought was added later, but in any case it's much more noticeable in retail. Giving RDM extra debuffs was a measure to keep it relevant when Refresh became less necessary (definitely not the case here) and they would make fights significantly easier, which isn't the point.


Go play retail then.

Nasomi isn’t meant to be a game seeking balance so all jobs are useful in all situations.
Author:  Therin [ Tue May 22, 2018 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Game Balance
Kazen wrote:
META: Most Efficient Tactic Available

Just because something is "the meta" doesn't mean you have to follow it. Find your own playstyle and enjoy the game your way. That's what is great about FFXI(MMOs in general), we can all do the same thing in many different ways.

The meta for both exp PTs and endgame has been set for a long time(way before Nasomi), yes there are adjustments made when things are nerfed/buffed but you will always see the same meta at HNMs(TP moves can wipe an alliance, why give unnecessary TP?) and in EXP PTs.

Out of era spells are not a change I want to see added unless they all are. Why is it fair for WHMs to get Repose and PLDs Reprisal, but RDMs don't get access to Composure/Distract/Flurry? Only because RDM is more "desirable"?

There is a bonus to multi-step skillchains already in the game, you get a damage bonus on each skillchain you do after the first one.

The "issue" you see is something that has been part of this game for nearly as long as I've been playing it(15+ years).

Edit: Also people keep saying "add in the pudding camp so BLMs can exp". You realize that was primarily a meripo camp in ToAU and not for leveling? Sure you can get merits there as BLM but you can do that while making money in sky farming pop sets.

I am fully on board with the opening of all of ToAU but I'd rather wait until most if not all of it is working before seeing it implemented


That's not what meta means, just fyi. Meta means self-referential. When something is meta is just means that it fits within the current understanding of the environment. It's similar to "fashionable." When something is meta, it's currently fashionable.

As for the topic in hand, I don't want this game to be balanced. I want this game to be like 2005-2006 era FFXI. 2005-2006 era FFXI wasn't balanced either.
Author:  Wolffhardt [ Tue May 22, 2018 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Game Balance
Therin wrote:
Kazen wrote:
META: Most Efficient Tactic Available

Just because something is "the meta" doesn't mean you have to follow it. Find your own playstyle and enjoy the game your way. That's what is great about FFXI(MMOs in general), we can all do the same thing in many different ways.

The meta for both exp PTs and endgame has been set for a long time(way before Nasomi), yes there are adjustments made when things are nerfed/buffed but you will always see the same meta at HNMs(TP moves can wipe an alliance, why give unnecessary TP?) and in EXP PTs.

Out of era spells are not a change I want to see added unless they all are. Why is it fair for WHMs to get Repose and PLDs Reprisal, but RDMs don't get access to Composure/Distract/Flurry? Only because RDM is more "desirable"?

There is a bonus to multi-step skillchains already in the game, you get a damage bonus on each skillchain you do after the first one.

The "issue" you see is something that has been part of this game for nearly as long as I've been playing it(15+ years).

Edit: Also people keep saying "add in the pudding camp so BLMs can exp". You realize that was primarily a meripo camp in ToAU and not for leveling? Sure you can get merits there as BLM but you can do that while making money in sky farming pop sets.

I am fully on board with the opening of all of ToAU but I'd rather wait until most if not all of it is working before seeing it implemented


That's not what meta means, just fyi. Meta means self-referential. When something is meta is just means that it fits within the current understanding of the environment. It's similar to "fashionable." When something is meta, it's currently fashionable.

As for the topic in hand, I don't want this game to be balanced. I want this game to be like 2005-2006 era FFXI. 2005-2006 era FFXI wasn't balanced either.



:lol: :lol: :lol: you actually thought he thought that meta was an acronym for most efficient tactic available.
Author:  Cilarnen [ Tue May 22, 2018 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Game Balance
Get 3 blm together and aoe shit down. Can triple AM if you don't have the skill. Easy xp.
Author:  Edward [ Tue May 22, 2018 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Game Balance
If this is an actually serious topic then you should mostly just be advocating for an increased focus on low-man content, in particular the introduction of: salvage, nyzul, assaults, and various level-capped ENMs, because in each and every one of those melee and jobs like blue mage became incredible. In something like salvage jobs like summoner go from borderline broken dds to lepers, whereas jobs like monk and samurai come to the fore for their defensive/offensive combinations. Even events like Einherjar (sp) are conducive to making melee/low man jobs "more meta".

The problem with discussing 'meta' jobs is they simply reflect the endgame du jour, and one of the principal crowning achievements of FFXI was it's variety of relevant endgame activities. Numbers tweaking is a disgusting abjuration of a game that had depth and achieved functional balance through diverse encounter rulesets.

This is another reason why ToAU monster sets should also be a focus: increased diversity of sites, like the aforementioned puddings, allow for a larger variety in viable exp avenues. As an aside this plus the fixing of the blue mage and corsair AF sets would go a long way towards achieving 'parity', whatever you think that means in the retail XI context.
Author:  Avellion [ Tue May 22, 2018 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Game Balance
Having a perfectly equal balance between Jobs in a game where you don't need to make alts isn't absolutely necessary. The whole point of the way XI was in this era was for you to make tactical decisions and bring the job that is necessary for the event. Making everything even or cookie-cutter is almost always more detrimental than helpful to the overall dynamic of the game. I mean, look at how bland and boring every class in WoW became (if you played that) or how simplistic rotations in XIV became the more they "balanced".

In addition, let's say Nasomi did take your advice and add certain out of era spells or adjustments, it would just upset the balance and someone else would feel left behind. Then you end up playing this neverending game of catch up where certain jobs need a tweak to be viable again, and you end up where current retail is.
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