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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:00 pm 
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Posts: 26
Kazen wrote:
What role would you call a job that has primarily defensive Job Traits and Abilities, with the ability to heal itself?

The defensive traits of PLD are not so effective that they can matter, else PLD's wouldn't be subbing /nin at 75.

Sentinel and Rampart have excessive cooldowns for how short they last, and then it's just the naked PLD with their shield sometimes shaving off 20~30pts of damage than they'd have otherwise taken, occasionally allowing an uninterrupted spellcast, but no more frequent or reliable than the variety of spell interruption gear available for other jobs, and theres nothing inherently unique or specialized about a naked PLD that gives them enough def or vit to make so much of a difference against tough mobs. I can see the longevity and safety in PLD/NIN for being abled to use Flash to buy time for Utsusemi, but this has little to do with the actual "tanking" role. A tank role is filled by that which takes the mob's aggression so others don't have to, but this role cannot fully exist in FFXI/Nasomi because DD quickly switches the mob's attention to whoever just hit it hardest provided a WHM didn't just Divine Seal a cure / Cure5 for an equally huge number as a DD's TPmove. PLD sorely lacks both the hard-hitting capacity as well as the cure potency, and it might take a PLD as much as A voke + Flash + Sentinel + Cure + WS to get aggro back on itself, whereas any other DD could have done it just with WS alone. The only reliable way to maintain aggression on PLD is to have 1~2 thf's constantly doing Trick Attack off the PLD, but even this plan of attack breaks down as early as caederva mire when /nin becomes a virtual requirement to stay alive against the hard hitting attacks, and where having any one single party member regardless if they're PLD or not holding all aggro uninterrupted without breathing room to recast utsusemi will produce some sad results and wasted time on party-member K.O.'s

I'm not even fully sure if PLD/Sword is the real issue, or if the issue is actually that two-handed weapons get huge attack buffs for their weapon skill TP moves. That seems to be the real problem. Even despite PLD not having any attack modifying traits or abilities, the other direct melee jobs all either have A+ specialization in a 2handed weapon or dual-wield benefits, and even though 2handed weapons generate TP at the same rate as single-handed, the 2handed weapon skills generally hit for twice as much damage -- and this damage discrepancy difference is why PLD begins to seem worthless in it's damage output for stealing aggro from other players.

If you ask me, the way Aegis works with +200 damage to Shield Bash is something that should have been gradually added to the PLD as an inherent trait as they leveled up, perhaps related to Shield skill or the levels of Shield Mastery job trait, so that by lv.75, all PLD's have access to +200 damage on their shield bash, which would then edge PLD closer to actually having enough consistent damage output to be a worthy frontline melee member capable of reliably stealing aggro to save a party member.

_________________
I'm not responding anymore, just cause half the replies I get are just one more dummy trying to start their own conversation/argument about something else entirely.

Pretty sure jabberwacky can keep a train of thought more consistent than this forum.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:33 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:00 pm
Posts: 9
Okay, Heres the issues with PLD tank.

First of all PLD tank in classic retail was end all be all for tanking and any of you who have sat down and played it recently and felt have noticed issues
holding hate. I completely understand. There is to a huge degree a problem with how hate is distributed and this was something that was later fixed after abysea because it was something they had to address compare to the way it classically played (they broke it cause of the 99 it was perfect all the way to 75). Now I don't know how nasomi has it set up but originally it was already hard to take hate off a PLD tank in classic. there was ALOT of factors that made PLD tanks the best back then (SOME OF WHICH WASN'T JUST PLD SPECIFIC) one of them was when a WHM cured the tank it left stoneskin on them, another thing i noticed was both PLD and RDM could use Phalanx.... I don't even see that available for PLD anymore I'm not sure if that was removed but I specifically remember doing quicksands(55+ BEFORE LEVEL SYNC) as RDM support watching a Tank throw holys after being cured hitting things so hard with it, and the mob could barely do any damage to the tank EVER because of stoneskin and phalanx + high shield and parrys. So what i'm saying is I believe the job is busted due to skills of classic being re arranged and what was available of that time is not available now. Now I look and phalanx 1 is rdm exclusive phalanx 2 is rdm exclusive i specifically remember 1 being shared and 2 being exclusive on merit for rdm.

That for one made sure that they were not getting hit, Enmity... doesnt seem to do jack shit. which makes me think either its not enough or the gear isn't properly distributing the stat. which is probably the case honestly earlier i put up a gear that was suppose to give me +5 evasion and +5 dark resistence and i noticed those stats did not go up in my inventory and combat skills. BUT the defense did go up so enmity + stats are probably not being allocating properly. OTHERWISE sentinel wouldn't grab a mobs attention period because its enmity based.

My biggest thing is I was told that he runs off the current servers patches and fixes it along the way and thats why there is alot of npc that do nothing because they are part of a expansion that isnt actually in the game. If thats true I know they over hauled Enmity gauge because it was broken after Abysea.
compound the Stoneskin and Phalanx issue. PLD is in a VERY VERY BAD place. take away fealty and rampart for a second who cares if its OP the fact of the matter is PLD cannot actually do its job. TARUS have it just as bad its suppose to be better for us to hold hate but its not because while i have the MP to cast cures all day for added hate generation something is broken with that TOO. so no matter what the DDs and melees are just the only thing working to bounce hate around. Currently tanks overall are in a bad place and the other reason ninja looks good is because of Utsu ichi and ni and the way it holds hate because the mob cannot hit them. PLDS are suppose to replace 2 nins and paired with a good RDM can last forever even without the stoneskin heals from affilatus whm cures(which probably helps to hold hate even more if you think about it).

The class is severely broken..i'd glady trade our OP skills to actually do our job properly.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:42 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:12 pm
Posts: 241
I promise it would be more efficient to ask "what can I do better" than to rant about things (some of which are flat out incorrect).

There's a little difference in emnity sure, my observation is that emnity caps at a much lower value here, which allows dps to ride high emnity until they get hit. PLD can cap their emnity much faster sure, but it takes sginificantly less time for melee and blm to catch them due to lower caps. 2 good nukes from a decent blm will flip emnity. PLD has to play against the blm and save a cd or flash to re-flip the #1 spot asap. Other than feeling like emnity has a lower cap and fealty being broken PLD feels ok. I wouldn't mind shield bash being more reliable but it is what it is.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:25 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:00 pm
Posts: 9
The_Carrot wrote:
I promise it would be more efficient to ask "what can I do better" than to rant about things (some of which are flat out incorrect).

There's a little difference in emnity sure, my observation is that emnity caps at a much lower value here, which allows dps to ride high emnity until they get hit. PLD can cap their emnity much faster sure, but it takes sginificantly less time for melee and blm to catch them due to lower caps. 2 good nukes from a decent blm will flip emnity. PLD has to play against the blm and save a cd or flash to re-flip the #1 spot asap. Other than feeling like emnity has a lower cap and fealty being broken PLD feels ok. I wouldn't mind shield bash being more reliable but it is what it is.


You are out of your Gourd or just at a low level that you haven't seen the issue arise'd in a party yet. one of the two flash and cover does little to remedy the situation. flash isn't going to rip the hate right back onto you for the remainder of the fight. 1 good DMG from a DD and it stays on the rest of the party for the entirety of the fight. No provoke or flash is going to help. Sentinel? Yes but sometimes that fails. and the duration on it make it less then ideal to keep using it per a pull. its best used in between sata's to sustain the mob on you all fight while the THF snaps the mob onto you with a good sata.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:50 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:12 am
Posts: 832
My mans, White Mage Stoneskin on cures+Paladin Phalanx were not in CoP/ToAU era. Even in era, a PLD was not holding hate against a good DD in exp. Also if an item doesn't say "xxx Skill", it won't show up in your combat/magic skills.

Edit to add: The only reason PLD was the end-all tank in early FFXI days(pre-ToAU) is because most of the playerbase hadn't figured out that TP burn was the best way to build exp PTs. Instead you had groups Lv.30+ consisting mainly of BLM WHM RDM THF PLD(or NIN) DD, maxing out at chain 5 with 10k/hr being an amazing party.

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Drop THF75/RNG75/DRK75/COR75/SAM75/NIN75/PLD75/MNK75
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:11 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:00 pm
Posts: 9
Kazen wrote:
My mans, White Mage Stoneskin on cures+Paladin Phalanx were not in CoP/ToAU era. Even in era, a PLD was not holding hate against a good DD in exp. Also if an item doesn't say "xxx Skill", it won't show up in your combat/magic skills.

Edit to add: The only reason PLD was the end-all tank in early FFXI days(pre-ToAU) is because most of the playerbase hadn't figured out that TP burn was the best way to build exp PTs. Instead you had groups Lv.30+ consisting mainly of BLM WHM RDM THF PLD(or NIN) DD, maxing out at chain 5 with 10k/hr being an amazing party.


Except 1 tp skill back then didnt make you lose your aggro the way it does here. the enmity/hate is broken. and thats all I played was original through CoP ToAU I left after abysea dropped shortly within a week.

You can't contribute people being ignorant of pt exp chain parties and compositions thats a lazy argument. Truth be told you guys on this server use PLs with EXP modifiers that wasn't something when we did it. exp on this server is most certainly higher. also Japanese parties was typically some of the best parties because typically those players new how to utilize party compositions for magic burst and time management. fact is because tank jobs are broken and people don't care to learn or utilize magic burst and half the jobs have some sort of problem to them. People on this server just power level all the way up to 65 and sometimes beyond the mules are outrageous. No real party comp stacks nothing but melee, BLMs should be a top priority and so should PLDs and WHMs no one really cares because of the mule crisis. thats why EXP per hour is outrageous. Everyone just stacks melee dps


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:39 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:12 am
Posts: 832
Quote:
Cure

While under the effect of Afflatus Solace, the target will be granted the effect of Stoneskin for 25 seconds.


Quote:
Afflatus Solace

Job Ability
Inspires you to draw strength from the healing spells you cast.
Obtained: White Mage Level 40
Recast Time: 1:00
Duration: 2 hours


Quote:
(cur | prev) 17:48, April 8, 2009‎ Chrisjander (wall | contribs)‎ m . . (1,771 bytes) (+1,771)‎ . . (New Page: ==Job Ability== *Inspires you to draw strength from the healing spells you cast. * '''Obtained:''' White Mage Level 40 * '''Recast Time:''' 1:00 * '''Duration:''' 2 hours {| border="0...)


This was an ability added in 2009.

Let's look at Phalanx:

Quote:
Revision as of 22:05, August 27, 2009 by Lordshadow (wall | contribs)
(diff) ← Older revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)


Quote:
Description
Spell cost: 21 MP
Spell element: Light
Magic skill: Enhancing Magic (Modifies Damage Resistance)
Jobs:
Red Mage lvl 33


Phalanx is literally a level 77 spell for Paladin on retail and always has been. Stop making shit up.

Edit: I know that when I or one of my friends made parties in ToAU, we tended not to invite a PLD/"tank". We had other chars then too in case you were wondering but that isn't even the point because a PT with a BRD RDM 4 DD/NIN or WHM COR BRD 3 DD/NIN would get more exp/hr than any other setup. Skillchains and Magic Bursts are wonderful mechanics, but they, like everything else in this game, are situational.

Also to add, DDs in PTs that utilized SC+MB generally had to sit on their TP so they weren't really competing with the PLD/WAR for Enmity.

_________________
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Deft RDM75/BRD75/BLM75/SMN75
Drop THF75/RNG75/DRK75/COR75/SAM75/NIN75/PLD75/MNK75
Sleep wrote:
Don't you fashist shits have no life?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:43 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:51 am
Posts: 62
Location: Torino, Italy
If you guys are so sure enmity is broken, why don't you go out there and test it?

You ain't gonna get it fixed unless you post proofs (in the form of videos of said testing and related numbers crunching), assuming it's actually broken, that is.

As for how to test it, look no further: https://kanican.livejournal.com/13848.html

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:26 pm 
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Posts: 662
I truly love pld's who cry that they can't hold hate in exp parties. Y'all are so precious.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:32 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:00 pm
Posts: 9
Kazen wrote:
Quote:
Cure

While under the effect of Afflatus Solace, the target will be granted the effect of Stoneskin for 25 seconds.


Quote:
Afflatus Solace

Job Ability
Inspires you to draw strength from the healing spells you cast.
Obtained: White Mage Level 40
Recast Time: 1:00
Duration: 2 hours


Quote:
(cur | prev) 17:48, April 8, 2009‎ Chrisjander (wall | contribs)‎ m . . (1,771 bytes) (+1,771)‎ . . (New Page: ==Job Ability== *Inspires you to draw strength from the healing spells you cast. * '''Obtained:''' White Mage Level 40 * '''Recast Time:''' 1:00 * '''Duration:''' 2 hours {| border="0...)


This was an ability added in 2009.

Let's look at Phalanx:

Quote:
Revision as of 22:05, August 27, 2009 by Lordshadow (wall | contribs)
(diff) ← Older revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)


Quote:
Description
Spell cost: 21 MP
Spell element: Light
Magic skill: Enhancing Magic (Modifies Damage Resistance)
Jobs:
Red Mage lvl 33


Phalanx is literally a level 77 spell for Paladin on retail and always has been. Stop making shit up.

Edit: I know that when I or one of my friends made parties in ToAU, we tended not to invite a PLD/"tank". We had other chars then too in case you were wondering but that isn't even the point because a PT with a BRD RDM 4 DD/NIN or WHM COR BRD 3 DD/NIN would get more exp/hr than any other setup. Skillchains and Magic Bursts are wonderful mechanics, but they, like everything else in this game, are situational.

Also to add, DDs in PTs that utilized SC+MB generally had to sit on their TP so they weren't really competing with the PLD/WAR for Enmity.

I didn't make shit up 75 was cap dick head it couldn't always have been like that. And healer did have stoneskin per cures applied after cures.that stacked for a few secs Affilatus was for holy buffs stop being pretentious unbelievabe..idiot..


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