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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:32 pm 
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Literally just test it. What's the big deal?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:59 am 
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violetnce wrote:
Wolffhardt wrote:
No posts are about getting fixes "now". We're discussing it now, and hoping that Nas finds this post when he decides to prioritize these fixes. Seems like you're learning about how this server works lately.

It'd be dope if he decided to do it now, but this post or our feelings about whether it should be now, or are really not relevant to Nas's timeline. I doubt Nas is considering fixing BLM while working on rolling out ToAU.


Again, I must ask - why are you blaming Nasomi for this? No one seems to have the real data to truly compare the 2008 data set with what is presently live. Why are you insisting it's Nasomi's problem? Do you truly expect Nasomi to put in hours of work testing BLM when you and your group of "dozens of veterans that would drop everything they have to spend countless hours to get him whatever information he’d like" flatly refuse to do even 3 hours of work now?

I've addressed the dynamics at play here - that Nasomi is a hobbyist, not a team of games makers trying to sell you a product. Why are you treating Nasomi as if they are Square Enix?


You’re not addressing anything. You’re asking questions that we have answered for 10+ pages now.

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Kazen wrote:
...TopShelf told Nas to roll back all your ZNM gear, do the gilpocalypse and nerf Fishing/RNG into the ground.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:34 pm 
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Just wanted to bump this to tell the troll the obvious from the Q&A: He intends to fix macc in the next few weeks and never suggested he wanted anyone’s help.

Just like, literally, everything else ever.

Best of luck on Nas.

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Kazen wrote:
...TopShelf told Nas to roll back all your ZNM gear, do the gilpocalypse and nerf Fishing/RNG into the ground.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:25 pm 
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violetnce wrote:
Fidelcashflow wrote:
It's literally every spell in the game that is offensive magic disposablehero. I've watched Burst II do less than 100 damage to lvl 60 mobs. It's not that the damage calculations are off, it's that resist rates are WAY too high. A 50% resist shouldn't be happening 50% of the time. It's rarer to do unresisted damage than it is to do resisted damage with how it currently sits.


http://puu.sh/CkVLD/0a3c116abc.png

On the contrary, in the data set the odds of getting a fully unresisted spell is only 60%. Which means that 40% of the time the caster was getting resisted at 1/2 or worse... in conditions that are likely more favorable to landing casts than farming IT monsters. Without hard data, your emotions can certainly cloud how you remember these events. Outrage over a resist is much more memorable than the "expected" result of not being resisted.


Are we looking at the same data here? The 60% resist rate is for no staff, however you over look water staff has 79% and Neptune 89% without resist. If we're only going to look at one set of numbers for a baseline it should be Nq staffs as most BLM I'm their 70s would have a staff. Heck many in their 50s would be getting their staves.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:43 pm 
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Nekozuko wrote:
Heck many in their 50s would be getting their staves.


Considering Maze of shakhrami is no longer agro at 50, and gardening is still a ways off, most mages should just stop leveling at 50 and excavate 4-7 ore for an iridal staff. Pretty sure a lot do. At the very least, most can easily fork over 20k for an ice staff and 30k for a thunder staff.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:15 pm 
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Nekozuko wrote:
Are we looking at the same data here? The 60% resist rate is for no staff, however you over look water staff has 79% and Neptune 89% without resist. If we're only going to look at one set of numbers for a baseline it should be Nq staffs as most BLM I'm their 70s would have a staff. Heck many in their 50s would be getting their staves.


*60% un-resisted rate. I'm sure it's just a typo but in case it isn't I wanted to be as clear as possible.

They would also be grinding primarily against IT or VT - monsters 6 or so levels above the caster, as opposed to the example data set's 3 levels above. 3 entire levels worth of M.DEF the monsters have for free over the example data-set.

I admit I should have been more clear. My intent was only to loosely relate the leveling experience of a mildly-geared individual (+int gear, pre-staff) to the no-staff data set. Which, going only off of anecdotal evidence since no one has put forward any data as to the actual resist rates we experience on the live server, seems to fit the "I feel I get resisted way too often but not enough to actually nullify my damage output" complaint that seems to be the most common (because BLMs are still accused of nuking too hard and pulling threat in XP PTs).

I would be very interested to see the data set of 200+ casts from a level ~60 w/ staff against an IT/IT+ monster.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:11 pm 
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violetnce wrote:
Nekozuko wrote:
Are we looking at the same data here? The 60% resist rate is for no staff, however you over look water staff has 79% and Neptune 89% without resist. If we're only going to look at one set of numbers for a baseline it should be Nq staffs as most BLM I'm their 70s would have a staff. Heck many in their 50s would be getting their staves.


*60% un-resisted rate. I'm sure it's just a typo but in case it isn't I wanted to be as clear as possible.

They would also be grinding primarily against IT or VT - monsters 6 or so levels above the caster, as opposed to the example data set's 3 levels above. 3 entire levels worth of M.DEF the monsters have for free over the example data-set.

I admit I should have been more clear. My intent was only to loosely relate the leveling experience of a mildly-geared individual (+int gear, pre-staff) to the no-staff data set. Which, going only off of anecdotal evidence since no one has put forward any data as to the actual resist rates we experience on the live server, seems to fit the "I feel I get resisted way too often but not enough to actually nullify my damage output" complaint that seems to be the most common (because BLMs are still accused of nuking too hard and pulling threat in XP PTs).

I would be very interested to see the data set of 200+ casts from a level ~60 w/ staff against an IT/IT+ monster.


Then you need to find a mob with very little level range or have someone higher level to check con of each mob. Then use a parser... err manually write down the results.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:35 pm 
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Or... like I said for 13 pages, do absolutely nothing because it doesn’t matter and Nas will take another shot at adjusting it when he gets to it, like he said in the Q&A.

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Kazen wrote:
...TopShelf told Nas to roll back all your ZNM gear, do the gilpocalypse and nerf Fishing/RNG into the ground.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:27 pm 
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Nekozuko wrote:
Then you need to find a mob with very little level range or have someone higher level to check con of each mob. Then use a parser... err manually write down the results.


Manually alt-tabbing and entering a number into an excel sheet between each cast takes practically no time. 6 seconds tops, which you can easily fit between cooldowns.

Wolffhardt wrote:
Or... like I said for 13 pages, do absolutely nothing because it doesn’t matter and Nas will take another shot at adjusting it when he gets to it, like he said in the Q&A.


Adjusting BLM isn't going to be like a DDR stage. You don't just put in effort and hope you do a good job and a more era-appropriate result falls out. Every bit of verifiable datapoint gathered now is a resource he can draw on.

1) More data gathered in-era can be found by scouring the web
2) Data gathered about how Nasomi's formulae work at this very moment can be gathered (ex: finding the current softcap in Nasomi's formulae or even just 100 casts to estimate a mean unresist rate for an average user)
3) Comparing old and new data to accurately determine where discrepancies may lie. Maybe it's the M.ACC formua. Maybe it's monster M.DEF scaling incorrectly. Maybe it's a rounding error!

This defeatist outlook of yours does nothing but serve as an excuse for your laziness.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:40 pm 
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Here - @Wolffhardt I'll cut you a deal.

You, or one of your buddies, records a stream as BLM fighting whatever mob they like. So long as the spell doesn't change, the mob isn't weak to the spell, the equipment doesn't change, and the mobs are ideally all the same level or only spawn as one of two levels, I'll watch that stream for up to five hours and manually transcribe all legible data myself. How about it? The hard part is being done for you.

Ideally - if you could recreate the conditions as in the example data set, that'd be fantastic.


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