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 Post subject: Re: Parser
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:06 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 5:51 pm
Posts: 208
I would argue that XIV is far more restrictive than XI. At least it was when I played up until Alexander or so

In XIV you needed, as you said, 8 party members of which 1-2 were tanks, 2 were healers, and 4-5 were DPS. You couldn't even clear the progression content without an even more limited optimal combination within those 8 players.

In XI, you can kill anything short of a handful of mobs with between 6 and 18 people. Anything that requires more than 5 or 6 people is because there's a rage timer or something like that. Job wise you can have RDM tanks, SAM tanks, DRK tanks, you can do melee damage, BLM damage, SMN damage, etc. There is so much more versatility in FFXI.

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 Post subject: Re: Parser
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:45 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:29 pm
Posts: 18
Therin wrote:
I would argue that XIV is far more restrictive than XI. At least it was when I played up until Alexander or so

In XIV you needed, as you said, 8 party members of which 1-2 were tanks, 2 were healers, and 4-5 were DPS. You couldn't even clear the progression content without an even more limited optimal combination within those 8 players.

In XI, you can kill anything short of a handful of mobs with between 6 and 18 people. Anything that requires more than 5 or 6 people is because there's a rage timer or something like that. Job wise you can have RDM tanks, SAM tanks, DRK tanks, you can do melee damage, BLM damage, SMN damage, etc. There is so much more versatility in FFXI.


Some jobs in XI are actual trash at most endgame encounters, or need very specific setups just to use, in XIV, you can use any set of tanks/dps/healers and still clear the fights. You can use between 6-18 people here ya, but the less people you bring will make it so you're forced into strict setups that can actually work. Even with 18 people some jobs aren't going to ever see certain endgame encounters on XI. That's just how the games are. XI is much more strict in what is actually useful or even possible to clear fights with. Just because some jobs can fill multiple roles on XI doesn't mean it isn't any less restrictive on what jobs are still able to be used.


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 Post subject: Re: Parser
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:23 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 5:51 pm
Posts: 208
Renavi wrote:
Therin wrote:
I would argue that XIV is far more restrictive than XI. At least it was when I played up until Alexander or so

In XIV you needed, as you said, 8 party members of which 1-2 were tanks, 2 were healers, and 4-5 were DPS. You couldn't even clear the progression content without an even more limited optimal combination within those 8 players.

In XI, you can kill anything short of a handful of mobs with between 6 and 18 people. Anything that requires more than 5 or 6 people is because there's a rage timer or something like that. Job wise you can have RDM tanks, SAM tanks, DRK tanks, you can do melee damage, BLM damage, SMN damage, etc. There is so much more versatility in FFXI.


Some jobs in XI are actual trash at most endgame encounters, or need very specific setups just to use, in XIV, you can use any set of tanks/dps/healers and still clear the fights. You can use between 6-18 people here ya, but the less people you bring will make it so you're forced into strict setups that can actually work. Even with 18 people some jobs aren't going to ever see certain endgame encounters on XI. That's just how the games are. XI is much more strict in what is actually useful or even possible to clear fights with. Just because some jobs can fill multiple roles on XI doesn't mean it isn't any less restrictive on what jobs are still able to be used.


Unless it has changed recently (as I stopped playing XIV), there were trash jobs in XIV too. For example progression teams didn't really use WAR or DRG for Second Coil until both of those jobs had already gotten some loot from it. MNK DPS was just too superior. You also never saw teams taking multiples in -- a two BRD team wouldn't clear the DPS checks in Turn 4 and Turn 8 during progression phases, and you could only really use those jobs once they had gotten sufficiently well geared. FFXIV had a lot of these DPS checks in the game where if you didn't have very skilled melee in extremely good gear, you simply couldn't do the content in time.

The only really shitty endgame jobs in FFXI are BST and MNK (and I guess PUP though it's so incomplete on Nasomi it's hard to really even mention it), and once Salvage comes out everyone will love MNKs again. Everything else has some use. PLD and NIN can tank, any melee is useful for skillchaining and some damage, even some of the weaker ones have useful abilities like THF's Treasure Hunter, DRG's Angon and WAR's Tomahawk/Full Break (though WAR isn't really weak, it's just not as good as DRK and SAM). All mage types are good (WHM, RDM, BLM and SMN) and all support jobs are good and can even be used together (BRD and COR). BLU is even good here even though it's FAR weaker than it was in retail, but my point in all of this is that there are no fights in FFXI that REQUIRE you to have a specific setup.

As for BST, it was always intended to be an CC/add control job when in groups or a solo job alone. Just because we don't use it that way doesn't mean it never had a place. For example, you could bring BSTs to Tiamat, Jorm or Aspid and have them handle two adds at once (charming one and fighting another). That could be useful in retail if you bothered to try it.

_________________
Therin / Erith

Fairy (ThoseGuys/LostParadise)
Cerberus (Resurgence)
Phoenix (Beyond/DynamisBums)
Shiva (Apathy)
Nasomi (DraconicBallad)


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 Post subject: Re: Parser
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:43 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:29 pm
Posts: 18
Therin wrote:
Renavi wrote:
Therin wrote:
I would argue that XIV is far more restrictive than XI. At least it was when I played up until Alexander or so

In XIV you needed, as you said, 8 party members of which 1-2 were tanks, 2 were healers, and 4-5 were DPS. You couldn't even clear the progression content without an even more limited optimal combination within those 8 players.

In XI, you can kill anything short of a handful of mobs with between 6 and 18 people. Anything that requires more than 5 or 6 people is because there's a rage timer or something like that. Job wise you can have RDM tanks, SAM tanks, DRK tanks, you can do melee damage, BLM damage, SMN damage, etc. There is so much more versatility in FFXI.


Some jobs in XI are actual trash at most endgame encounters, or need very specific setups just to use, in XIV, you can use any set of tanks/dps/healers and still clear the fights. You can use between 6-18 people here ya, but the less people you bring will make it so you're forced into strict setups that can actually work. Even with 18 people some jobs aren't going to ever see certain endgame encounters on XI. That's just how the games are. XI is much more strict in what is actually useful or even possible to clear fights with. Just because some jobs can fill multiple roles on XI doesn't mean it isn't any less restrictive on what jobs are still able to be used.


Unless it has changed recently (as I stopped playing XIV), there were trash jobs in XIV too. For example progression teams didn't really use WAR or DRG for Second Coil until both of those jobs had already gotten some loot from it. MNK DPS was just too superior. You also never saw teams taking multiples in -- a two BRD team wouldn't clear the DPS checks in Turn 4 and Turn 8 during progression phases, and you could only really use those jobs once they had gotten sufficiently well geared. FFXIV had a lot of these DPS checks in the game where if you didn't have very skilled melee in extremely good gear, you simply couldn't do the content in time.

The only really shitty endgame jobs in FFXI are BST and MNK (and I guess PUP though it's so incomplete on Nasomi it's hard to really even mention it), and once Salvage comes out everyone will love MNKs again. Everything else has some use. PLD and NIN can tank, any melee is useful for skillchaining and some damage, even some of the weaker ones have useful abilities like THF's Treasure Hunter, DRG's Angon and WAR's Tomahawk/Full Break (though WAR isn't really weak, it's just not as good as DRK and SAM). All mage types are good (WHM, RDM, BLM and SMN) and all support jobs are good and can even be used together (BRD and COR). BLU is even good here even though it's FAR weaker than it was in retail, but my point in all of this is that there are no fights in FFXI that REQUIRE you to have a specific setup.

As for BST, it was always intended to be an CC/add control job when in groups or a solo job alone. Just because we don't use it that way doesn't mean it never had a place. For example, you could bring BSTs to Tiamat, Jorm or Aspid and have them handle two adds at once (charming one and fighting another). That could be useful in retail if you bothered to try it.


All of the jobs could clear the fights, especially once people knew what mechanics did, and yes the game is much better now in terms of usefulness for every job. On XI though, especially the era we're trying to reproduce, some jobs are going to stay shit forever, even more if you include that some jobs are only useful for certain fights and then not included elsewhere. You can soloheal/solotank fights in XIV, unless a specific mechanic prevented it in that fight. It's not like on XI you can go without a tank or without a healer either for any endgame. Not a single job on XIV is an actual detriment to clearing the fight, sure some are better, but at least they can be used for any fight. It's just not the case at all on XI.

Anyways, I think parsers would be useful in EXP parties when a certain amount of contribution is expected, but damage wise at least in endgame, it isn't as important. Other data could be useful though, like acc/macc.


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 Post subject: Re: Parser
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:18 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 5:51 pm
Posts: 208
Renavi wrote:
All of the jobs could clear the fights, especially once people knew what mechanics did, and yes the game is much better now in terms of usefulness for every job. On XI though, especially the era we're trying to reproduce, some jobs are going to stay shit forever, even more if you include that some jobs are only useful for certain fights and then not included elsewhere. You can soloheal/solotank fights in XIV, unless a specific mechanic prevented it in that fight. It's not like on XI you can go without a tank or without a healer either for any endgame. Not a single job on XIV is an actual detriment to clearing the fight, sure some are better, but at least they can be used for any fight. It's just not the case at all on XI.


I mean you could easily kill Fafnir with 4 BLM/NIN, a BRD and a SMN, with the BLMs bouncing hate after nukes and the SMN using Earthen Ward to absorb Hurricane Wing, but people don't do it because why bother re-inventing the wheel when you can just do it the normal way?

My point is that with XIV you're required to use 8, you have to use certain archetypes and the game often forces you to dual tank or dual heal due to stack mechanics (like Ifrit Extreme, etc.). I will grant you that the jobs are probably more balanced in XIV than in XI. There isn't as much gap in a BRD (the worst DPS when I played) and a MNK (the best) as there is a THF (FFXI's worst) and a SAM (FFXI's best). But what I mean is that you're limited to setups and strategies. That's why I didn't like XIV as much. No matter how good you are at the game, you couldn't go into Binding Coil and clear it with 2-3 people (low-manning).

Another example about what bothered me in FFXIV is that only certain archetypes can do those jobs. Example: You can't have a DRG tank in XIV. They have no taunts and no damage reduction cooldowns. There is physically no way to make a DRG tank. But in FFXI, theoretically, there's nothing stopping you from tanking Khimaira with a SAM/NIN or DRK/NIN if you're so inclined to do so.

We have rabbit trailed now.

_________________
Therin / Erith

Fairy (ThoseGuys/LostParadise)
Cerberus (Resurgence)
Phoenix (Beyond/DynamisBums)
Shiva (Apathy)
Nasomi (DraconicBallad)


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 Post subject: Re: Parser
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:47 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 6:01 pm
Posts: 798
Nas wants players to collect data by hand to maximize the longevity of each person's participation in the game. You want a sophisticated parser that will pull actual variable data rather than simply concatenate damage numbers? Learn to write it yourself and stop begging for it. Nobody is going to pull it out of a hat, and Deeps won't help you.


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 Post subject: Re: Parser
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:32 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 9:53 pm
Posts: 383
Julia wrote:
Nas wants players to collect data by hand to maximize the longevity of each person's participation in the game. You want a sophisticated parser that will pull actual variable data rather than simply concatenate damage numbers? Learn to write it yourself and stop begging for it. Nobody is going to pull it out of a hat, and Deeps won't help you.


I don't think anyone is begging for Nasomi to provide us with a parser he has to code from the ground up himself, but rather allow the player base to openly use them without fear of repercussion. Lord knows none of us want him spending any less time coding content for the server than he is already forced to due to all of the shit heads lately. For old retail at least there were parsers that existed that provided much more detail oriented data than something like Scoreboard or Deeps ever did.

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 Post subject: Re: Parser
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:35 pm 
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Posts: 2629
Julia wrote:
Nas wants players to collect data by hand to maximize the longevity of each person's participation in the game. You want a sophisticated parser that will pull actual variable data rather than simply concatenate damage numbers? Learn to write it yourself and stop begging for it. Nobody is going to pull it out of a hat, and Deeps won't help you.



No one is asking Nas to provide a parser that I know of.

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 Post subject: Re: Parser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:48 am 
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People have asked in many different places to anyone who would respond. I wasn't implying that people were or are asking Nas. I have no idea whether that is the case or why that's relevant. My point is that there is no tool in distribution that can do all of what people are proposing here, regardless of whether parsing is allowed.


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 Post subject: Re: Parser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:35 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:12 am
Posts: 191
Julia wrote:
People have asked in many different places to anyone who would respond. I wasn't implying that people were or are asking Nas. I have no idea whether that is the case or why that's relevant. My point is that there is no tool in distribution that can do all of what people are proposing here, regardless of whether parsing is allowed.


I'm not sure if we are allowed to name it here, but yes, there is.


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