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 Post subject: Re: Why I Hate TOAU
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:48 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Why I Hate TOAU
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:56 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:38 pm
Posts: 41
The arrow burn thread is from 2007 and post TOAU.

I did assault when I wasn't 75....and you can only do them in groups.

Sly wrote:
Grahf wrote:
Dynamus and Limbus was only end game and one one group could be in each Dynamis or Limbus area at a time. It's still different than what TOAU did by separating people from the regular world on a regular basis at all levels and having multiple instances of the same area going at the same time.

Where were these parties? What did they fight?

I'll never deny that TOAU gave people more to do.....



Manaburn pt locations in 2005
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=257&mid=11062567199903562

thread talking about arrow burn pts in places like boyhada tree and sky
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=261&mid=1170552497147053163&h=50

Mnk burn pts were a thing WAY before aht urghan, down in KRT on skeles as well.

And to be fair most people didnt do assaults or nyzul at anything but 75 cap lol.


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 Post subject: Re: Why I Hate TOAU
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:06 am 
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Posts: 173
The thread is from 2007 but the first sentence says "I havent played FFXI long enough to have experienced a RNG-burn PT, but I hear that they were completely insane." and then everyone talks about exp camps that were not in AU, it was just the first thread I pulled up that showed arrow burns were a thing. Heres one from 2005 http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=261&mid=1113409717222125061&h=50

And thats why i said most people didnt do them unless it was 75 cap. You dont need to be so nit picky, im not trying to start a fight or mad at you lol.


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 Post subject: Re: Why I Hate TOAU
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:12 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:38 pm
Posts: 41
In anycase they were the exception

Sly wrote:
The thread is from 2007 but the first sentence says "I havent played FFXI long enough to have experienced a RNG-burn PT, but I hear that they were completely insane." and then everyone talks about exp camps that were not in AU, it was just the first thread I pulled up that showed arrow burns were a thing. Heres one from 2005 http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=261&mid=1113409717222125061&h=50

And thats why i said most people didnt do them unless it was 75 cap. You dont need to be so nit picky, im not trying to start a fight or mad at you lol.


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 Post subject: Re: Why I Hate TOAU
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:42 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:38 pm
Posts: 41
Explain why I hate TOAU

Kubisnaxx wrote:
Grahf wrote:
I started playing FFXI a week or two after its US release. Upon logging in I was greeted by some kind of city official in the industrious city of Bastok. I was told I was an adventurer, like all of the other play characters. I wasn't sure what that meant at the time. What I could do was quests to "help" the NPCs out (which helped me out). Some of the quests involved large groups.... Like "eco warrior" and "tour of gustaberg." In the case of "tour of gustaberg" there was no great reward but the quest got people together and got them taking a long trip together... It wasn't hard at all. Eco warrior was difficult to both form the group and complete (wiping was possible with the level cap) so you needed the right people (jobs?). Those people probably didn't go out of their way to do eco warrior but it was nice to check off of your list of quests and say you did it. The reward was a mild bonus. In both cases the party was formed for the sake of accomplishing the quest.

Speaking of parties.... Leveling up was difficult and jobs had to gravitate towards extremes to be useful. For example, almost every damage dealer subbed warrior for berserk and attack bonus and wore gear that maximized STR, DEX, and attack. WHMs wore gear that maximized their MP and subbed SMN or BLM to maximize their MP. A RDM/NIN, DRG/WHM, PLD/DRK, or MNK/WHM was not sought after by parties. Each of these jobs that gravitated towards an extreme came together in the party and relied upon each oithers strengths to make up for the extreme weaknesses that were bred. For example, a WHM/SMN can't take hits and a PLD/WAR can't deal dmg.

Official missions were used to advance a story of a shadow lord who had plunged the world into chaos some time ago and was supposidly returning. ROZ built upon that story by explaining how the leaders of Jueno were what remained of an ancient race who manipulated the shadow lord into being the shadow lord (if I remember right). COP also built upon that story by giving Altana an antogonist, using characters from the original game, going into details about the Zilart and Kuluu, etc.

Then came WoW. Then came ToAU.

I'm not longer an adventurer.... I'm a mercenary who does things for treasure. Every quest and mission involves talk of treasure. The whole reason white gate is attacked is because the monsters want some kind of treasure in the town (I can't remember what it was called) and sometimes they get it...

For the first time we have parties made up of all of the same job. I often participated in all DRG/WHM groups fighting colibri. BLM mana burn parties became common. The new jobs, PUP, BLU, and COR are all hybrids that don't gravitate towards an extreme. A COR is both a DD and an enhancer. A BLU is a physical and magical DD AND a healer... This is not like a RDM whose melee dmg was insignificant and who was usually a dedicated healer or nuker.

The story builds nothing on the original game and instead takes us to a whole new land that has as little as possible to do with the original game. Here there are no Zilart, Kuluu, shadow lord... The whole history of the game has been restarted in this land.

We now have instanced dungeons (assault) where a team is separated from the rest of the world for a short time to accomplish a mission. The only time a player character was sepaarted from the world in the original game was to fight a boss in a small area.

The missions were easy.... Anyone could do them. Backtrack to COP Diablo fight and no one was winning that fight without a good DRK and everyone knowing where to stand on the floor.

Anyways... ToAU and WoW have the majority on their side.


What exactly is this post supposed to do LOL it sounds like you're stating information people can find on a wiki page


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 Post subject: Re: Why I Hate TOAU
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:51 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:24 am
Posts: 36
Grahf wrote:
1. It was BARELY whispered in passing. The TOAU missions had nothing to do with the shadow lord and zilart who tied the original game and first two expansions together
2. LIKE WHAT? BLM burn parties were formed because BLMs were no longer considered a necessity in exp parties and there were mobs weak against magic in TOAU areas....the blob things in the volcano.\
3. There were no monk tanks prior to TOAU.....
4. Everyone zone is not an instance. Players from the entire world can get into one zone (theoretically) in a non instanced world.
5. I suppose the nation missions and TOAU missions were of comparable difficulty. But the nation missions were easy except for maybe the shadow lord (prior to TOAU).


1. Neither did rise of the zilart nor CoP have anything to do with the shadow lord, in fact they had even LESS to do with thim than ToAU did because they explain exactly nothing about him and are more about the ancient races and the gods, the shadow lord there is how you put it... whispered in passing? After the first cs that ties the end of the shadow lord into zilart there is nothing to do with him. In ToAU it at least directs you to his origin and goes into explaining the origins of the kindred (which the shadow lord is as are the demons that surround him).
2. Sly gave you a list of them, and as said they were not uncommon AT ALL before ToAU. Once again you are mistaking your experience for reality. Very few mobs would prove resistant to the way mana burns work, and they were very efficient parties... they didnt come around because of ToAU, ToAU just made them more prominent.
3. This is completely false, again just because YOU didn't know of them doesn't mean they didn't exist. Monks have and had access to a fair amount of -pdt, had high hp, and did a fair amount of damage. They worked perfectly fine as off tanks and would be used on occasion (merit is easy because the mobs die fast and you didnt really need a maxed out defensive tank).
4. You clearly don't know what instance means. There is AN instance of the zone south gustaberg, players being able to enter and exit that INSTANCE is irrelevant to it being an instance. Is it the common usage of the term? No. But the only difference between an instance of a regular zone of ffxi and an instance like assault is who is allowed to enter it. The reason why they are called instances is to distinguish that there IS more than one but even a single one is still an instance. Further, you failed to point out where the difference of importance is between having a limited number of instances (having to wait til the instance is cleared) and not. To the player the experience is the same, you go in with your party and only your party.
5. The shadow lord wasn't even hard before ToAU, you could solo the fight. Again, ToAU was comparable in difficulty to zilart (moderate intricacy). Zilart did have divine might and the like but those are not part of the missions. I can't think of a zilart fight that was notably more difficult than the harder points in ToAU (and the ToAU areas were notably more dangerous than were the areas that Zilart took place in with the exception of sky).
.


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 Post subject: Re: Why I Hate TOAU
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:27 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:38 pm
Posts: 41
1. The Shadow Lord was being used by the Zilart to drain the power from....something so that they could go to heaven or some place like that. The Shadow Lord was part of the Zilarts plot for the past 30 years. The Zilart Kam'lamaut fought the Shadow Lord in the great war but that was just a sham. Him fighting the shadow lord in the present game was also just a sham. It was something to do with the final ROZ fight that started the reaction in Delkfutt's Tower. And then COP deals more with the Zilart. All three games went back to the Zilart.
2. TOAU did make them more prominent.
3. Ridiculous
4. Yes I do know how instances work... The zone of south gustaberg is an open world for anyone to go into. If anyone goes in that zone they will see everyone else who is in that zone. It's not like that in modern MMOs that vare heavily instanced where it's just you and a group in a particular instance of that zone or world. Sitting around and waiting to enter a BCNM for the party before you to finish is not the same as five different groups being in different instances of the same zone. Spending 30 minutes in Salvage with virtually anyone else you can get to come with you while multiple other parties do the same thing in the same zone (but different instance as you) is basically modern dungeon runs. This is not the same as BCNMs where you get 2-5 very specific other people together who want the same items from the fight to trade in their much rarer beastmen seals and go to a area where virtually no one else is going to be. But if other people happen to be there they will be waiting.
5. Virtually no one solod the shadow lord. Like maybe 1% of the server population solod the shadow lord... I never had any trouble with a single TOAU mission and I can't speak for other people.

asuranknight wrote:
Grahf wrote:
1. It was BARELY whispered in passing. The TOAU missions had nothing to do with the shadow lord and zilart who tied the original game and first two expansions together
2. LIKE WHAT? BLM burn parties were formed because BLMs were no longer considered a necessity in exp parties and there were mobs weak against magic in TOAU areas....the blob things in the volcano.\
3. There were no monk tanks prior to TOAU.....
4. Everyone zone is not an instance. Players from the entire world can get into one zone (theoretically) in a non instanced world.
5. I suppose the nation missions and TOAU missions were of comparable difficulty. But the nation missions were easy except for maybe the shadow lord (prior to TOAU).


1. Neither did rise of the zilart nor CoP have anything to do with the shadow lord, in fact they had even LESS to do with thim than ToAU did because they explain exactly nothing about him and are more about the ancient races and the gods, the shadow lord there is how you put it... whispered in passing? After the first cs that ties the end of the shadow lord into zilart there is nothing to do with him. In ToAU it at least directs you to his origin and goes into explaining the origins of the kindred (which the shadow lord is as are the demons that surround him).
2. Sly gave you a list of them, and as said they were not uncommon AT ALL before ToAU. Once again you are mistaking your experience for reality. Very few mobs would prove resistant to the way mana burns work, and they were very efficient parties... they didnt come around because of ToAU, ToAU just made them more prominent.
3. This is completely false, again just because YOU didn't know of them doesn't mean they didn't exist. Monks have and had access to a fair amount of -pdt, had high hp, and did a fair amount of damage. They worked perfectly fine as off tanks and would be used on occasion (merit is easy because the mobs die fast and you didnt really need a maxed out defensive tank).
4. You clearly don't know what instance means. There is AN instance of the zone south gustaberg, players being able to enter and exit that INSTANCE is irrelevant to it being an instance. Is it the common usage of the term? No. But the only difference between an instance of a regular zone of ffxi and an instance like assault is who is allowed to enter it. The reason why they are called instances is to distinguish that there IS more than one but even a single one is still an instance. Further, you failed to point out where the difference of importance is between having a limited number of instances (having to wait til the instance is cleared) and not. To the player the experience is the same, you go in with your party and only your party.
5. The shadow lord wasn't even hard before ToAU, you could solo the fight. Again, ToAU was comparable in difficulty to zilart (moderate intricacy). Zilart did have divine might and the like but those are not part of the missions. I can't think of a zilart fight that was notably more difficult than the harder points in ToAU (and the ToAU areas were notably more dangerous than were the areas that Zilart took place in with the exception of sky).
.


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 Post subject: Re: Why I Hate TOAU
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:21 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:24 am
Posts: 36
Grahf wrote:
1. The Shadow Lord was being used by the Zilart to drain the power from....something so that they could go to heaven or some place like that. The Shadow Lord was part of the Zilarts plot for the past 30 years. The Zilart Kam'lamaut fought the Shadow Lord in the great war but that was just a sham. Him fighting the shadow lord in the present game was also just a sham. It was something to do with the final ROZ fight that started the reaction in Delkfutt's Tower. And then COP deals more with the Zilart. All three games went back to the Zilart.
2. TOAU did make them more prominent.
3. Ridiculous
4. Yes I do know how instances work... The zone of south gustaberg is an open world for anyone to go into. If anyone goes in that zone they will see everyone else who is in that zone. It's not like that in modern MMOs that vare heavily instanced where it's just you and a group in a particular instance of that zone or world. Sitting around and waiting to enter a BCNM for the party before you to finish is not the same as five different groups being in different instances of the same zone. Spending 30 minutes in Salvage with virtually anyone else you can get to come with you while multiple other parties do the same thing in the same zone (but different instance as you) is basically modern dungeon runs. This is not the same as BCNMs where you get 2-5 very specific other people together who want the same items from the fight to trade in their much rarer beastmen seals and go to a area where virtually no one else is going to be. But if other people happen to be there they will be waiting.
5. Virtually no one solod the shadow lord. Like maybe 1% of the server population solod the shadow lord... I never had any trouble with a single TOAU mission and I can't speak for other people.

asuranknight wrote:
Grahf wrote:
1. It was BARELY whispered in passing. The TOAU missions had nothing to do with the shadow lord and zilart who tied the original game and first two expansions together
2. LIKE WHAT? BLM burn parties were formed because BLMs were no longer considered a necessity in exp parties and there were mobs weak against magic in TOAU areas....the blob things in the volcano.\
3. There were no monk tanks prior to TOAU.....
4. Everyone zone is not an instance. Players from the entire world can get into one zone (theoretically) in a non instanced world.
5. I suppose the nation missions and TOAU missions were of comparable difficulty. But the nation missions were easy except for maybe the shadow lord (prior to TOAU).


1. Neither did rise of the zilart nor CoP have anything to do with the shadow lord, in fact they had even LESS to do with thim than ToAU did because they explain exactly nothing about him and are more about the ancient races and the gods, the shadow lord there is how you put it... whispered in passing? After the first cs that ties the end of the shadow lord into zilart there is nothing to do with him. In ToAU it at least directs you to his origin and goes into explaining the origins of the kindred (which the shadow lord is as are the demons that surround him).
2. Sly gave you a list of them, and as said they were not uncommon AT ALL before ToAU. Once again you are mistaking your experience for reality. Very few mobs would prove resistant to the way mana burns work, and they were very efficient parties... they didnt come around because of ToAU, ToAU just made them more prominent.
3. This is completely false, again just because YOU didn't know of them doesn't mean they didn't exist. Monks have and had access to a fair amount of -pdt, had high hp, and did a fair amount of damage. They worked perfectly fine as off tanks and would be used on occasion (merit is easy because the mobs die fast and you didnt really need a maxed out defensive tank).
4. You clearly don't know what instance means. There is AN instance of the zone south gustaberg, players being able to enter and exit that INSTANCE is irrelevant to it being an instance. Is it the common usage of the term? No. But the only difference between an instance of a regular zone of ffxi and an instance like assault is who is allowed to enter it. The reason why they are called instances is to distinguish that there IS more than one but even a single one is still an instance. Further, you failed to point out where the difference of importance is between having a limited number of instances (having to wait til the instance is cleared) and not. To the player the experience is the same, you go in with your party and only your party.
5. The shadow lord wasn't even hard before ToAU, you could solo the fight. Again, ToAU was comparable in difficulty to zilart (moderate intricacy). Zilart did have divine might and the like but those are not part of the missions. I can't think of a zilart fight that was notably more difficult than the harder points in ToAU (and the ToAU areas were notably more dangerous than were the areas that Zilart took place in with the exception of sky).
.


1. The shadow lord was shoehorned into the zilart plot as a way to get it started. He was not part of a 30 year plan (the cs actually states him as secondary to the actual plan), he wasn't anything meaningful, he has very little to do with the plan at all. As said, he plays literally no part after the first cs.
2. I never denied that it made them more prominent but your entire argument on the point was that ToAU made them, which it did not.
3. Try it in game now, its just as viable on nasomi assuming -pdt works the same way and that is really saying something since here defense is much more critical thanks to a retail update to the formula (hint, -damage taken% is the most potent way to reduce damage why you don't see its possible even when the game mechanics itself support the idea is beyond me). Thats part of why rdm tanks were also a thing, if geared with good -pdt gear many jobs have viable damage reduction capacity.
4. Not a valid response given the other endgame examples of exactly that in pre-toau. So regardless of if there are multiple or just one you get exactly the same experience you just gave.
5. I really doubt your "nobody did it!" comment because it wasn't even a hard solo. If you move past solo, any number of players over that make the fight not a problem at all. The fight was harder at levle 60 but it wasn't capped, 2+ 75s and its a walk in the park. I ran the fight somewhere around 9 times (3 for myself, 6 for linkshell members) and not once did we bring more than 3 or 4 (and that many was because we were bringing more than one person who needed the mission). As for ToAU, just look through the actual content, most of the stuff is statistically tougher than Zilart fights (for example, alexander vs eld'narache or w/e his name is the final zilart battle), statistics aren't everything but I maintain that content was comparable (by MY personal experience I didn't have any major issues with zilart either but again thats pure personal experience).


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 Post subject: Re: Why I Hate TOAU
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:51 pm 
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1. No comment.
2. BLM always had to burn or solo in my experience before and after ToAU. People didn't like inviting BLMs as you never knew if you would get that crazy hate magnet. Mount Zhayolm Puddings was just about the only mana burn worthy camp in ToAU.
3. 100% I used MNKs as tanks pre-ToAU. Sometimes there was no better option because we didn't have level sync, sometimes MNK was better for the mobs (skeletons).
4. Dynamis is as much of an instance as Einherjar, Limbus is as much of an instance as Salvage. Nit pick words if you wish, but the content was not wildly different IMHO.
5. If you were like me ToAU was super easy as a 75 in Relic Armor, or top tier equipment gathered from the pre-ToAU content that I completed years before ToAU.

Grahf wrote:
I did assault when I wasn't 75....and you can only do them in groups.

I soloed Assaults pre 75 as a BRD to get Yigit Body. People also solo the BCNMs. What is your point?

I do support your opinion not to like ToAU, but this is a topic with a lot of bias. You need to understand there are 2 sides. No one is right or wrong, as this is based on user experience. If you want to have an open discussion (post on a public forum) you have to expect someone will have a different view.

ToAU to me was an expansion with the sole purpose of giving a bunch of 75 content to a group of people bored with the existing content. It was about 50% more things to do in a week. We all had our relic armor, Sky items mostly collected, Sea was limited. ToAU though was a brand new expansion with items we all needed again, and encouraged us to keep plugging 6 hours nightly into FFXI, and keep our subscriptions active.


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 Post subject: Re: Why I Hate TOAU
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:04 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 4:34 am
Posts: 127
It seems to me that the OP was probably level 40 or something when ToAU came out and doesn't really remember much about pre-ToAU ffxi, which I suppose is understandable considering how long ago it was.

OP's claim that ToAU "made burn pts a big thing11!" is laughable, manaburns were big back then, and people complained about them constantly: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?f ... 13510&h=50

Manaburns were quite popular from 50-75, even SE noticed them pre-ToAU and nerfed the aern's elemental camp.

People formed manaburns because they were faster, easier, and safer, and melees complained about them endlessly because pts needed BLMs to exp on dumb stuff like crabs.

Arrow burn was a huge thing in sky and places like lufaise, and war/nin and monk/nin "tanked" in many TP burns in 2005 in sky, etc, not to mention the KRT monk pts Sly already brought up...

Zilart missions were a joke, normal missions are easy too, CoP is the only outlier, and shadowlord was never a very high level. He's like level 60 or something. He would look tough to solo at level 40~50 though!


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