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 Post subject: Why I Hate TOAU
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:34 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:38 pm
Posts: 41
I started playing FFXI a week or two after its US release. Upon logging in I was greeted by some kind of city official in the industrious city of Bastok. I was told I was an adventurer, like all of the other play characters. I wasn't sure what that meant at the time. What I could do was quests to "help" the NPCs out (which helped me out). Some of the quests involved large groups.... Like "eco warrior" and "tour of gustaberg." In the case of "tour of gustaberg" there was no great reward but the quest got people together and got them taking a long trip together... It wasn't hard at all. Eco warrior was difficult to both form the group and complete (wiping was possible with the level cap) so you needed the right people (jobs?). Those people probably didn't go out of their way to do eco warrior but it was nice to check off of your list of quests and say you did it. The reward was a mild bonus. In both cases the party was formed for the sake of accomplishing the quest.

Speaking of parties.... Leveling up was difficult and jobs had to gravitate towards extremes to be useful. For example, almost every damage dealer subbed warrior for berserk and attack bonus and wore gear that maximized STR, DEX, and attack. WHMs wore gear that maximized their MP and subbed SMN or BLM to maximize their MP. A RDM/NIN, DRG/WHM, PLD/DRK, or MNK/WHM was not sought after by parties. Each of these jobs that gravitated towards an extreme came together in the party and relied upon each oithers strengths to make up for the extreme weaknesses that were bred. For example, a WHM/SMN can't take hits and a PLD/WAR can't deal dmg.

Official missions were used to advance a story of a shadow lord who had plunged the world into chaos some time ago and was supposidly returning. ROZ built upon that story by explaining how the leaders of Jueno were what remained of an ancient race who manipulated the shadow lord into being the shadow lord (if I remember right). COP also built upon that story by giving Altana an antogonist, using characters from the original game, going into details about the Zilart and Kuluu, etc.

Then came WoW. Then came ToAU.

I'm not longer an adventurer.... I'm a mercenary who does things for treasure. Every quest and mission involves talk of treasure. The whole reason white gate is attacked is because the monsters want some kind of treasure in the town (I can't remember what it was called) and sometimes they get it...

For the first time we have parties made up of all of the same job. I often participated in all DRG/WHM groups fighting colibri. BLM mana burn parties became common. The new jobs, PUP, BLU, and COR are all hybrids that don't gravitate towards an extreme. A COR is both a DD and an enhancer. A BLU is a physical and magical DD AND a healer... This is not like a RDM whose melee dmg was insignificant and who was usually a dedicated healer or nuker.

The story builds nothing on the original game and instead takes us to a whole new land that has as little as possible to do with the original game. Here there are no Zilart, Kuluu, shadow lord... The whole history of the game has been restarted in this land.

We now have instanced dungeons (assault) where a team is separated from the rest of the world for a short time to accomplish a mission. The only time a player character was sepaarted from the world in the original game was to fight a boss in a small area.

The missions were easy.... Anyone could do them. Backtrack to COP Diablo fight and no one was winning that fight without a good DRK and everyone knowing where to stand on the floor.

Anyways... ToAU and WoW have the majority on their side.


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 Post subject: Re: Why I Hate TOAU
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:27 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:35 pm
Posts: 173
Sorry to rain on your hate parade but BCNMs, KSNMs, ENMs, Dynamis and Limbus are all instanced and were all around long before aht urghan :\


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 Post subject: Re: Why I Hate TOAU
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:34 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:24 am
Posts: 36
You can like or dislike anything you want and thats perfectly ok. However almost every reason you gave for disliking ToAU is a misconception (something I see in most who say they don't like it).

-Missions not being connected to the same story (which I actually like, when games keep following the same story forever it inevitably turns bad, its better imo to have new interesting stories that flesh out the world in different areas than just keep going in a straight line). Having said what I just said ToAU IS connected to the other stories about as much as you connected the other two expansion stories in that odin is related to the origin of the shadow lord.

-Parties becoming gimmicky burn groups. This was always done, I actually had a blm burn static on retail before toau.

-No longer an adventurer. Actually you were and even in current retail still are considered an adventurer, you were a mercenary purely as part of the ToAU story line and progression setup (you join a mercenary company). You don't cease to be an adventurer at this point any more than you cease to be one when you join the tenshodo.

-ToAU made hybrids a thing. Completely false, red mage was viable in relatively all areas (its melee sucked compared to actual melee but that is as it should be being t hat it is a jack of all trades). Blu was also a jack of all trades and not a particularly viable healer as you claim (rdm was much more viable). Cor is not too different in its role than rdm was, some support and some dd. Thf fits the same role as cor (support role in the form of enmity managment and dd). Have you not heard of melee whms? Apoc drk tanks? Monk tanks? Your misconception is that ffxi was EVER a game of STRICT roles, it never was and was always much more fluid (jobs had a primary focus but many could be adapted to do many different things).

-ToAU made instanced dungeons a thing. What about bcnms? what about ENMS? What about mission boss fights? What about archangel fights? There was instanced stuff LONG before ToAU.

-ToAU missions were not hard. Also not true, they were not as hard as CoP on release but they were harder than nation misisons and probably comparable to zilart missions in difficulty (basically, CoP was the only stand-out especially hard mission line).

ToAU and WoW have nearly nothing in common, stop making that comparison. I personally do not like WoW at all (and hate ffxiv for taking after it with 2.0), I love ToAU, they have almost nothing that relates.


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 Post subject: Re: Why I Hate TOAU
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:07 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:38 pm
Posts: 41
You're killing me. reread

Sly wrote:
Sorry to rain on your hate parade but BCNMs, KSNMs, ENMs, Dynamis and Limbus are all instanced and were all around long before aht urghan :\


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 Post subject: Re: Why I Hate TOAU
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:20 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:38 pm
Posts: 41
1. The role between Odin and the Shadow Lord wasn't made concerete until WOTG....until then it was only hinted at.
2. What did you fight with all BLMs before TOAU?
3. No saying anything to this...
4. There were no melee whms in exp parties. There were no monk tanks in exp parties or any of that other stuff.
5. I already addressed this. Anyways, here it goes... BCNMs and ENMs could be completed by one party at a time. If another party wanted to do that same BCNM they had to wait for the previous party to finish. Mission boss fights were a small area, and again, if one party was already in that fight the second party would have to wait. THAT ISNT AN INSTANCE. Instances of multiple versions of the same world happening at the same time.
6. I never failed or put any effort towards completing a single toau mission that I completed

asuranknight wrote:
You can like or dislike anything you want and thats perfectly ok. However almost every reason you gave for disliking ToAU is a misconception (something I see in most who say they don't like it).

-Missions not being connected to the same story (which I actually like, when games keep following the same story forever it inevitably turns bad, its better imo to have new interesting stories that flesh out the world in different areas than just keep going in a straight line). Having said what I just said ToAU IS connected to the other stories about as much as you connected the other two expansion stories in that odin is related to the origin of the shadow lord.

-Parties becoming gimmicky burn groups. This was always done, I actually had a blm burn static on retail before toau.

-No longer an adventurer. Actually you were and even in current retail still are considered an adventurer, you were a mercenary purely as part of the ToAU story line and progression setup (you join a mercenary company). You don't cease to be an adventurer at this point any more than you cease to be one when you join the tenshodo.

-ToAU made hybrids a thing. Completely false, red mage was viable in relatively all areas (its melee sucked compared to actual melee but that is as it should be being t hat it is a jack of all trades). Blu was also a jack of all trades and not a particularly viable healer as you claim (rdm was much more viable). Cor is not too different in its role than rdm was, some support and some dd. Thf fits the same role as cor (support role in the form of enmity managment and dd). Have you not heard of melee whms? Apoc drk tanks? Monk tanks? Your misconception is that ffxi was EVER a game of STRICT roles, it never was and was always much more fluid (jobs had a primary focus but many could be adapted to do many different things).

-ToAU made instanced dungeons a thing. What about bcnms? what about ENMS? What about mission boss fights? What about archangel fights? There was instanced stuff LONG before ToAU.

-ToAU missions were not hard. Also not true, they were not as hard as CoP on release but they were harder than nation misisons and probably comparable to zilart missions in difficulty (basically, CoP was the only stand-out especially hard mission line).

ToAU and WoW have nearly nothing in common, stop making that comparison. I personally do not like WoW at all (and hate ffxiv for taking after it with 2.0), I love ToAU, they have almost nothing that relates.


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 Post subject: Re: Why I Hate TOAU
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:07 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:35 pm
Posts: 173
You said "The only time a player character was sepaarted from the world in the original game was to fight a boss in a small area" i was mainly referring to dynamis and limbus which doesnt fall under what you said. Its ok to dislike aht urghan, you'll be the minority but you are entitled to your opinion but the expansion didnt change to the degree you are making it out to, like its abyssea or adoulin. There was manaburns, arrow burns, and other non traditional parties before aht urghan.

Using more instanced content isnt bad, its personal preference, aht urghan didnt obsolete other endgame, it just gave you more options of things to do at 75, HNMs are all dead for the day and wont be repoping for 20+ hours? On a 3 day lock out from dyna or limbus since you did it the night before, now you can do an assault, nyzul or salvage run. Most people like having more endgame options to do, which aht urghan offered a lot of new content for people at 75. I dont really care if we never get ToAU exp camps, but id love to have access to more endgame content, thats what will keep people around since not everyone just plays to level up.


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 Post subject: Re: Why I Hate TOAU
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:14 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:38 pm
Posts: 41
Dynamus and Limbus was only end game and one one group could be in each Dynamis or Limbus area at a time. It's still different than what TOAU did by separating people from the regular world on a regular basis at all levels and having multiple instances of the same area going at the same time.

Where were these parties? What did they fight?

I'll never deny that TOAU gave people more to do.....

Sly wrote:
You said "The only time a player character was sepaarted from the world in the original game was to fight a boss in a small area" i was mainly referring to dynamis and limbus which doesnt fall under what you said. Its ok to dislike aht urghan, you'll be the minority but you are entitled to your opinion but the expansion didnt change to the degree you are making it out to, like its abyssea or adoulin. There was manaburns, arrow burns, and other non traditional parties before aht urghan.

Using more instanced content isnt bad, its personal preference, aht urghan didnt obsolete other endgame, it just gave you more options of things to do at 75, HNMs are all dead for the day and wont be repoping for 20+ hours? On a 3 day lock out from dyna or limbus since you did it the night before, now you can do an assault, nyzul or salvage run. Most people like having more endgame options to do, which aht urghan offered a lot of new content for people at 75. I dont really care if we never get ToAU exp camps, but id love to have access to more endgame content, thats what will keep people around since not everyone just plays to level up.


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 Post subject: Re: Why I Hate TOAU
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:34 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:24 am
Posts: 36
Grahf wrote:
1. The role between Odin and the Shadow Lord wasn't made concerete until WOTG....until then it was only hinted at.
2. What did you fight with all BLMs before TOAU?
3. No saying anything to this...
4. There were no melee whms in exp parties. There were no monk tanks in exp parties or any of that other stuff.
5. I already addressed this. Anyways, here it goes... BCNMs and ENMs could be completed by one party at a time. If another party wanted to do that same BCNM they had to wait for the previous party to finish. Mission boss fights were a small area, and again, if one party was already in that fight the second party would have to wait. THAT ISNT AN INSTANCE. Instances of multiple versions of the same world happening at the same time.
6. I never failed or put any effort towards completing a single toau mission that I completed


1. Concrete or not it was there and played into the whole origin of the kindred.
2. All kinds of things, blm burns work well against many targets (in fact ToAU was considered a BLOW to blm burns, not a boon) do you really not see how this is possible....?
3. Ok, if you choose not to defend your position I have to assume you concede the point. (I doubt you actually do but you have no good response so~)
4. So exp parties encompass the whole of the game? This is also false, merit parties occasionally made use of monk tanks.
5. It is an instance, every zone is AN instance. What exactly is the difference between having one or multiple for you? Either way you are separated from any other players by being located there so the difference is moot.
6. YOUR experience is irrelevant, the actual difficulty of the content is comparable. Pretty much all of the nation missions could be completed with less than a full party. I maintain that the actual difficulty of content was comparable to that of zilart, and I believe the MAIN reason for this is due to the fact that most of the content was set for level 75 where if you had been around for a while, you were probably geared beyond what the missions were tuned for.


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 Post subject: Re: Why I Hate TOAU
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:43 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:38 pm
Posts: 41
1. It was BARELY whispered in passing. The TOAU missions had nothing to do with the shadow lord and zilart who tied the original game and first two expansions together
2. LIKE WHAT? BLM burn parties were formed because BLMs were no longer considered a necessity in exp parties and there were mobs weak against magic in TOAU areas....the blob things in the volcano.\
3. There were no monk tanks prior to TOAU.....
4. Everyone zone is not an instance. Players from the entire world can get into one zone (theoretically) in a non instanced world.
5. I suppose the nation missions and TOAU missions were of comparable difficulty. But the nation missions were easy except for maybe the shadow lord (prior to TOAU).

asuranknight wrote:
Grahf wrote:
1. The role between Odin and the Shadow Lord wasn't made concerete until WOTG....until then it was only hinted at.
2. What did you fight with all BLMs before TOAU?
3. No saying anything to this...
4. There were no melee whms in exp parties. There were no monk tanks in exp parties or any of that other stuff.
5. I already addressed this. Anyways, here it goes... BCNMs and ENMs could be completed by one party at a time. If another party wanted to do that same BCNM they had to wait for the previous party to finish. Mission boss fights were a small area, and again, if one party was already in that fight the second party would have to wait. THAT ISNT AN INSTANCE. Instances of multiple versions of the same world happening at the same time.
6. I never failed or put any effort towards completing a single toau mission that I completed


1. Concrete or not it was there and played into the whole origin of the kindred.
2. All kinds of things, blm burns work well against many targets (in fact ToAU was considered a BLOW to blm burns, not a boon) do you really not see how this is possible....?
3. Ok, if you choose not to defend your position I have to assume you concede the point. (I doubt you actually do but you have no good response so~)
4. So exp parties encompass the whole of the game? This is also false, merit parties occasionally made use of monk tanks.
5. It is an instance, every zone is AN instance. What exactly is the difference between having one or multiple for you? Either way you are separated from any other players by being located there so the difference is moot.
6. YOUR experience is irrelevant, the actual difficulty of the content is comparable. Pretty much all of the nation missions could be completed with less than a full party. I maintain that the actual difficulty of content was comparable to that of zilart, and I believe the MAIN reason for this is due to the fact that most of the content was set for level 75 where if you had been around for a while, you were probably geared beyond what the missions were tuned for.


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 Post subject: Re: Why I Hate TOAU
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:48 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:35 pm
Posts: 173
Grahf wrote:
Dynamus and Limbus was only end game and one one group could be in each Dynamis or Limbus area at a time. It's still different than what TOAU did by separating people from the regular world on a regular basis at all levels and having multiple instances of the same area going at the same time.

Where were these parties? What did they fight?

I'll never deny that TOAU gave people more to do.....



Manaburn pt locations in 2005
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=257&mid=11062567199903562

thread talking about arrow burn pts in places like boyhada tree and sky
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=261&mid=1170552497147053163&h=50

Mnk burn pts were a thing WAY before aht urghan, down in KRT on skeles as well.

And to be fair most people didnt do assaults or nyzul at anything but 75 cap lol.


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